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beyond_gravity
Jan 19, 2002, 4:38 AM
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I have no faith in my placement, i'm just as picky with my trad routes that people are with freesoloing. So does anyone really push there limites when trading?
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paintinhaler
Jan 19, 2002, 5:04 AM
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yes
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kagunkie
Jan 19, 2002, 7:30 AM
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Have you concidered trying aid climbing? You will learn the very intimate details of gear placement wile climbing/hanging on aid. Nothing will teach you what gear can do as thoroughly as hanging on it after you placed it. Its right in front of your face too, just dont let it hit you in the face if it pops!
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rrrADAM
Jan 19, 2002, 8:14 AM
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Hell yes...
I've taken 2 40+ footers, one on a #9 BD Stopper in Granite, and the other on a yellow Alien on Sandstone.
In fact I trust a good stopper placement, I placed, better than any bolt, placed by someone else.
That's the best part of Trad, to me, the pucker factor of being high above my pro.
rrrADAM
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gumby
Jan 19, 2002, 9:29 AM
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rrradam had my first thought HELL YEAAA!!! Though I've never taken a 40 footer! Plenty of smaller falls though!
peace, ludes, and plenty of captain morgan tonight!
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gunkjunkie
Jan 19, 2002, 4:38 PM
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Yes - depending on the type of pro that's available. Won't push my limits on a climb that's very run out or in a place where I feel the gear may be a little shaky but when I see that I can get really good placements I'll go for it. However my limit is probably laughably below everyone else's - -so maybe I;m not the best person to listen to.
Deirdre
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beyond_gravity
Jan 19, 2002, 4:53 PM
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i'm taking it that you people didn't trust yer gear in your first year of trading....did you? I'm trying to push my limits, but I just can't get over the fact that when i'm getting lowered, the wondering rope pops some placements when i'm cleaning, The #8 hex decking me in the nuts once. Today i'm going to try backing up some gear placments with bolts and see how well they hold, maybe that will build some confidence.
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rck_climber
Jan 19, 2002, 5:02 PM
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First off, yes, I do trust my gear, especially when I place it myself.
But more importantly is that you must trust your gear to make any progress in your climbing. If you don't trust your gear, you'll never feel confident enough to push your limits and risk falling to excell. Personally, I believe that trusting your gear is the fundamental "must" in climbing, otherwise, what are you doing up there anyway?
Just my thoughts on it.
Mick
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passthepitonspete
Jan 19, 2002, 5:27 PM
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Jeremy, that is an excellent idea about backing up your trad placements with bolts. Be sure that you install the bolt properly, right next to the crack if possible. Other climbers like you will appreciate the convenience.
I believe that you should never trust trad gear.
NEVER.
Trad gear is DANGEROUS!
So many people have died using it! This is why everyone is switching to sport climbing! Surely you don't think people would be drilling bolts if they could trust their trad gear!
It is a long established fallacy that trad gear is safe. It is not.
Look at the great equipment manufacturer Petzl - they sell no trad gear whatsoever. They have a huge assortment of bolting gear.
Be smart, climb safely.
Cheers,
Pete
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gunkjunkie
Jan 19, 2002, 7:06 PM
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Actually I just finished my first full season leading (led 4 pitches the prior season). But I have the advantage of climbing with a "mentor" who critiques allall my placements and I had followed him for all of the previous season and was able to observe his placements. I also climb at the Gunks where there is a wide range of relatively easy climbs to practice leading skills.
Find someone to look at your placements and give you constructive criticism.
Deirdre
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talons05
Jan 19, 2002, 7:33 PM
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I'm with rrradam in that I trust a placement of my own much better than one someone else put in...
Part of the rush in trad is the extra bit of variable thrown in...
AW
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saltspringer
Jan 19, 2002, 8:34 PM
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it's also a good idea to place alot of pro in cracks just off the ground and bounce test them, yank on them and generally mess around with them to see what they'll hold and when they'll pop. In my first season of leading I remember being frustrated because I didn't lead anything harder than 5.8 but then I realized that leading a 5.6 or 5.7 with bomber gear placements was just as satisfying and that allowed me to improve my gear to the point where I felt that I could get into leading 5.10 without worrying about ny gear failing. I had quite a few pieces pop out with rope drag so that I started placing tons of gear until I got it right and then I cut back to a reasonable number per pitch...just take your time and enjoy the whole process of trad leading and the satisfaction of placing the perfect nut!
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phylp
Jan 20, 2002, 1:05 AM
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Do you climb with people who could critique your gear placement for you? When I was first learning to lead (20 years ago!), my mentors did this for me and it was very helpful. Having someone tell you piece after piece is bomber, or could hold a truck, builds your confidence. Likewise, they would point out why some pieces were not good. Now I do the same for my less experienced partners. Good karma, I hope. So, yes, I totally trust my gear and have taken lots of falls on it.
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greatgarbanzo
Jan 20, 2002, 2:19 AM
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OFF COURSE:::
I think that PETE´s post is totally wrong... completely... Trad is as safe as your expertice... you suck? your placements too...
I will (as rrrADAM) trust WAY more on ANY placement done or inspected by me than any bolt (unless I placed the bolt...).
BOTTOM LINE:
TRAD IS SAFE if you know what you are doing... be aware...
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reno
Jan 20, 2002, 4:05 AM
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Pete:
Let me see if I got this right....you advocate drillin gbolts right next to a crack that will hold properly placed gear? Why ruin the line in such a manner?
Sport Climbers...sheesh.
JRB
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beyond_gravity
Jan 20, 2002, 4:28 AM
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I dont get it. If you guys have so much faith in your gear, why will you belay off two bolts, but not off two pices of gear? And I didn't bolt a trad line, I simply traded up a sport line.
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offwidthclimber
Jan 20, 2002, 4:55 AM
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i think pete is being a smart ass about not trusting trad gear...
the problem is... too many dumbasses will probably think he's serious and heed the advise. sad, sad, sad.
doh!
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colebatch
Jan 20, 2002, 5:32 AM
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I agree, pete your comment is rubbish. The whole essence of climbing is getting to the top of a cliff safely (and it is safe) using you own equipment and skills - not bolts put in by someone else. As for putting in bolts next to a perfectly good crack, if you did that in Australia you and your bolt would get bashed, and rightly so.
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beyond_gravity
Jan 20, 2002, 5:50 AM
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I dunno dudes, Pete seems to know what he's talking about. I dont see how anyone could trust a pice of trad gear over a bolt.
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crux_clipper
Jan 20, 2002, 5:51 AM
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Pete says that trad is dangerous compared to bolts. Pete, didn't you see the start of Vertical Limit!!??
Just joking.
Bolts can be just as dangerous. how do you know weather someone did a half ass job putting the bolt in. At least with Trad, you can be sure that it's the best placement in your own mind.
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saltspringer
Jan 20, 2002, 6:54 AM
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what you need to consider in all of this is that all of the gear we're climbiing with (at least I'm climbing with) carries a UIAA rating as to the relative strength of gear. This is your safety indicator IF you know how to properly place and assess a piece of gear: a crappy nut=a crappy cam=a crappy pin=a crappy hex=a crappy bolt! Get the picture? It has alot to do with human error, not gear. If you don't feel comfortable placing gear and relying on it then you should probably give up climbing since all of your biners, ropes, slings, your harness, etc...go through the same rigorous testing and yet they can still be mis-used: gear is very strong but the margin for error in climbing is very small so practice, study, ask lots of questions and learn to trust gear because you KNOW it's placed properly in solid rock, then you won't have any more worries!
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brogan
Jan 20, 2002, 7:14 AM
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I trust my gear. It just worries me that somebody coined the phrase "zipper". That is when multiple pieces of pro pop out on a fall. Bad thoughts. On the other hand if it was safe and easy then everyone would be doing it.
Brogan
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cryptoboy
Jan 20, 2002, 3:39 PM
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I hope you all realize that pete (passthepitionpete) is an aid climber. He is also very much not into sport climbing. His post was a huge huge huge dose of sarcasm.
He's the kind of person who has to trust something like a line of #0 heads in a very small crack. For him, getting a cam in feels like being attached to solid ground by a flagpole.
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passthepitonspete
Jan 20, 2002, 10:29 PM
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Oh my gosh, STU!
You gave me
MY BEST LAUGH ALL WEEK!
I laughed so loud I scared the cat! My sides are still aching!
I maintain:
There are two types of people around here,
those who "get it", and those who don't.
Seldom is taxonomic classification so simple!
DAMN, but that was funny!
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beyond_gravity
Jan 20, 2002, 11:41 PM
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I still dont get it, all you people are ravin on about your gear, and i'm told that if I dont trust a trad placment as much as I trust my harness i shouldnt be climbing. I think theres a slight differnce here between placing a nut in a crack and wearing a harness. OK OK, I've never had a bolt pop on me in my 2 years of sport climbing, yet in my 1/2 year of tradding, i've had sevrale placements pop on me. Somthing here dont seem right....
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