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tradpuppy
Jul 11, 2003, 2:15 AM
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For those of you familiar w/ the area, read it and weep.
http://server502.hypermart.net/seclimbers/cgi-bin/ikonboard.cgi?s=3f0e0ff97831ffff;act=ST;f=1;t=985
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tradkelly
Jul 11, 2003, 2:49 AM
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Do you have any web links to the area (threads, guides, anything?) for news of new access closures? Yeah, this sux. I've run into my fair share of folks that would cause similar situs out here in CO. My condolences. I'd be likely to follow Del's path too, though, if it were me and the circumstances were poor as they sound they were.
What's the geographic area we're talking about? I'm assuming GA near Atlanta somewhere, but I don't have a clue.
TIA.
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tradpuppy
Jul 11, 2003, 2:55 AM
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seclimbers.org is probably the best place to keep up with the news of our area. The Obed is located near Wartburg, Tn., off highway 27 an hour or so north of Chattanooga. There's some pretty good info on this site in the routes database as well.
http://www.rockclimbing.com/routes/listState.php?CountryStateID=23
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tenn_dawg
Jul 11, 2003, 3:04 AM
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Registered: Mar 14, 2002
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I'm sooo pissed off about this. You have no idea. I didin't want to fly off the handle in a tread where Del might read it, but Had I know, I would have gone up there every night with a baseball bat, and regulated anyone who fucked anythign up at his house.
It was his fucking HOME for crying out loud!! YOu would think that people could friggin show SOME RESPECT and TREAT IT AS THEIR OWN111
DAMNIT!! I"m not mad that the campsite is gone at all. I;m SCREAMING PISSED that climbers and floaters were taking advantage. I have always supported the desencey of climbers and the closeknittedness of our community, but this simple act of defiance from our ranks makes me rethink everything.
for anyone reading this who took advantage of Del, Marty, or their childern or their home, and hospitality. A big fat...
FUCK YOU!!!
...from yours truly.
Got a problem with it??? You can find me and we'll talk.
Travis Griggs
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tenn_dawg
Jul 11, 2003, 3:11 AM
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Here's a moment of preminition from my website that I'm still very willing to follow up on..
In reply to: Recently a new option for camping in the obed has been introduced. To locals, Dale and Marty, are allowing climbers and floaters to camp at their house. Their home is located across from Doc Howard road, near the Lilly Bridge. If you know the area, then you know that this is PRIME location. Before I give the directions to their home, I've got to vent for a second. Remember, this is Dale and Martys HOME, and it should be treated with respect. They are great people, and only ask for a $4 donation to stay at their home. They offer free water, a free place to drink beer, free firewood, and great times. If anyone out there chooses not to give them the respect they deserve, and steals, lies to, or in any other way wrongs them, I will KILL you. And remember, bad karma can, and will follow you forever, if for some reason, I don't catch up to you first. Anyway...
Bold emphasis added for this post.
Travis
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tradkelly
Jul 11, 2003, 3:36 AM
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Jeff,
Thank you for the news and link. My partner Sean is from Memphis and is (much) more familiar with the whole area than I, lowly CO dude. I've not had the pleasure to climb the rock in the SE, even though I've had some invites from friends. I'm going to work on cross-posting the salient facts to camp4.com; another audience that has some followers in the area that might not have otherwise known. It sux most that the perception of the community is smeared by the actions of a few, and that those actions have precipitated this response. Travis, feel free to have my permission to carry out your promises on trash, if you can find 'em. I'll try to keep this end of the country clean on my end.
Sorry, guys. I wish you luck with the situ.
kelly
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tenn_dawg
Jul 11, 2003, 3:36 AM
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Here is the Text of Del's post, for anyone too lazy to click the link. Del is a Great guy, him and his family have greeted me with great hospitality every time I have come their way.
"I regret to say that I must close my property to camping. Over the last year and a half I have met alot of great folks and made a lot of friends. Recently I have had a few run ins with real assholes and have had to throw folks out. Although the number of great folks far outweigh the weenies, the weenies take the fun out of it for me. I am also footing the bill for the portapottie. True, lots of people donate and some are really generous (thanks Steve, Cathy and the other Atlanta crew) but there are a lot of freeloaders out there too. Case in point; this weekend there were over 20 people here at one point or another. I got $9 in the donation can. I thoroughly enjoy hosting folks but have realized that the general climbing community needs more policing than I care to give. A 4th of July billboard keeps coming to mind; Freedom isn't free.
If I cultivate a Nazi attitude and decide to make a bunch of rules, I may open up in the future but to be totally frank, I don't think that would be much fun either. I will continue to work with the SEC coalition, Brad, Frank and others to promote and sustain climing. I will also be glad to host events such as Adopt-a-crag and Kickin' Access here.
Folks, I am not mad or bitter and have deliberated long and hard about this. This is not a rash, offhaded response to any one incident. I would rather keep it open but the time has come for me to reevaluate why I do this and maybe for climbers to evaluate themselves.
Sincerely,
Del "
We should be ashamed of ourselves for letting him down. Perhaps it is time for "climbers to evaluate themselves". Think long and hard about this, as it applies to everyone.
This is not just important to us locals, or SE climbers, it applies to EVERYONE.
We need to be aware of what we are doing, and how our actions affect others. As a tight knight community, the actions of a few reflect upon everyone. Everyone.
If you are unable to behave yourself like an adult, and a good, honorable person, you do not deserve to be a part of our community. You should never be given the opportunity to take advantage of incredible people such as Del. Please do the community a favor, and restrict your activities to private climbing parks, and Gyms. You have no place among the rest of us in a dynamic, and threatned public climbing scene.
Our actions are being watched and judged every monent. Events such as this are a tragedy and a shame.
I only wish that I had been in town so I could have helped him out, and mabey helped foot the bill. I had no idea this was going on, and would have sacraficed many days of climbing to help Del in what he was trying to do.
Any one who would not have done the same, should take a long hard look at the effect they are having on the climbing community.
Travis
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tradpuppy
Jul 11, 2003, 3:52 AM
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When those tenndawgs get mad, they get MAD! :x
You're right, I'm on pins and needles about some of our areas.
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ericulner
Jul 11, 2003, 6:00 AM
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[quote="tenn_dawg"]"I regret to say that I must close my property to camping. Over the last year and a half I have met alot of great folks and made a lot of friends. Recently I have had a few run ins with real assholes and have had to throw folks out. Although the number of great folks far outweigh the weenies, the weenies take the fun out of it for me. I am also footing the bill for the portapottie. True, lots of people donate and some are really generous (thanks Steve, Cathy and the other Atlanta crew) but there are a lot of freeloaders out there too. Case in point; this weekend there were over 20 people here at one point or another. I got $9 in the donation can. I thoroughly enjoy hosting folks but have realized that the general climbing community needs more policing than I care to give. A 4th of July billboard keeps coming to mind; Freedom isn't free.
If I cultivate a Nazi attitude and decide to make a bunch of rules, I may open up in the future but to be totally frank, I don't think that would be much fun either. I will continue to work with the SEC coalition, Brad, Frank and others to promote and sustain climing. I will also be glad to host events such as Adopt-a-crag and Kickin' Access here.
Folks, I am not mad or bitter and have deliberated long and hard about this. This is not a rash, offhaded response to any one incident. I would rather keep it open but the time has come for me to reevaluate why I do this and maybe for climbers to evaluate themselves.
Sincerely,
Del "
I can totally empathize with Del. Kathy and I spend $55/month to have a chemical toilet in front of our cliff (Draper Bluff). On a recent 3-day holiday weekend, there averaged 20-35 cars in our parking lot each day. Donations in the can for the whole weekend totaled a 10-dollar bill, a fiver, and 4 ones. A maximum of 6 people gave that particular weekend. Everyone else dropped off their turds for free. Holiday weekends usually have more out of region visitors- hmm.
Then there are those non-climber rednecks who pull in, park, empty their bowels, get back in the car and drive off, as though we operate a motorist rest stop (admittedly a non-climber related problem).
Del is right on the mark with "...a lot of great folks...", but he's also right on the mark with the feeling of general hassle. We already don't allow open public camping. The chem-toilet gets cleaned and restocked weekly. As it is, it's taxed enough per week.
I've a campsite that I allow my guides and immediate friends to use, which I guess causes the never-ending stream of emailed requests for camping permission.
Anyway, we certainly didn't make the $660 in donations last year to cover the chem-toilet. We would if everyone would give up at least one dollar per visit. Heck, we'd then be able to apply some toward all the other expenses from which the climbing public benefits. Those are:
Trail Maintenance Equipment & Supplies
Chainsaw
Brush cutter
Mower
Gas, Oil, Chains, Bars, Blades, etc.
Climbing Routes
Bolts, Hangers, Chain, etc.
Time & Labor
One of the biggest mysteries to me, though, is why we consistently have a 90ish% compliance rate with our sign-in requirement at the kiosk. There are some people who'd probably rather have their teeth pulled at the dentist than sign their name and make a little check mark in the "in" box, and then the "out" box on their way out.
I've posted a sign right at the entrance of the parking lot reminding people that they're entering private land, not public. You'd think that such a sign would cause people to WANT to stop and read the postings in the signboard/kiosk. Postings such as "you must sign your name", and "no organized groups with leaders without a contract". Then I have to be the prick who ruins the day for some group of clueless beginners who are there to climb and have a good time. "Clueless" meaning that they have blindly marched through the kiosk without reading a thing or signing in for that matter because the leader somehow didn't think it was important. We don't allow such groups because a: we incur a higher grade of liability with their presence, and b: because if one, two, or even three such groups showed up separately, it ruins the climbing opportunities for the rest of the climbing public who shows up as normal twosome and threesome parties, and moreover, it interferes with our climbing school operations when we have our own group.
And, I certainly didn't spend my energy opening entry level routes so some other guide could make a buck with his client.
And, there is no such thing as booty on private land. I meant to post my opinion on the whole booty concept on that other post regarding gear left on sport routes. If I find gear, it goes in a pile of unused gear that'll be there for the potential claimant to claim. I won't keep your wallet either when I find it on the ground. I make no distinction between the two. "Lost" or "left behind" stuff doesn't make it mine.
And, if I pick up gear at a public crag, I'll happily treat it the same as well.
e
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hoppinbig
Jul 11, 2003, 1:34 PM
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Registered: May 21, 2002
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This is sad news - I stayed at Del and Marty's in March and these were amazing guys - they were great hosts and all out super nice guys, why is it when people go out of their way to help others they get trampled on in the process? To those who abused Del and Marty's hospitality I would kick you in the face if I had the opportunity -
To Del and Marty - thanks for the great times and your gracious hospitality - it will not be forgotten.
Kevin
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kinch
Jul 11, 2003, 2:03 PM
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Registered: Feb 4, 2003
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I was up there a couple of weeks ago and he mentioned several times that he was about to close it down. I tried to talk him out of it but there were too many 'holes that messed it up for the rest of us.
Thanks Del and Marty. I'm really sorry it didn't work out.
kinch
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timstich
Jul 11, 2003, 2:28 PM
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In reply to: For those of you familiar w/ the area, read it and weep. http://server502.hypermart.net/seclimbers/cgi-bin/ikonboard.cgi?s=3f0e0ff97831ffff;act=ST;f=1;t=985
Sad story. Dell the landowner didn't want to get into what he termed 'nazi' rulemaking because it took the fun out of it for him. I completely understand.
I want to make this comment to all of you Texas folks out there who like to climb at the Continental Ranch on occasion. I know Howard out there pretty well and know the guy who got that whole kiosk pay-as-you-play on the honor system going. I trust the majority of climbing Texans and most everyone who rolls through the state has been very cool. But I warn you. If I ever find out anyone is not puting their money in the black steel kiosk at the bump gate at the main house, I will make it my mission in life to find out who you are, video document the crime, and post screen shots of the act all over the Internet and inform every climbing club I can find. I'll not do this if I have anything other than hard evidence of the act and you will have a chance to reply. Hearsay will be ignored.
Think that's no big whoop? Think about how small the climbing community is. Then think about your reputation as a freeloader and closer of climbing areas. You'll start to notice some harsh looks from complete strangers. And there will be no invites to climb at "secret" areas anymore, I'll bet. It's not a good thing to be blackballed. So why take the risk? Pay the $10 a day fee at the ranch *when you drive in.* Vee have vays of knowing about zee paymundt of fees. Zere vill be total information avareness.
Zat iss all.
-Herr Stich :twisted:
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orangekyak
Jul 11, 2003, 2:49 PM
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I was down there in March with Hoppinbig and others. Del was great to us. We cruised into his place and asked if we could crash, and how to get to the crags that would be sunny. He grabbed a pen from his pocket and, finding no paper at hand, drew us a map on the side of the trailer he was towing while he worked on the place (which he did the entire time we were there, except for when he was firing up the hot-tub for dirty climbers to enjoy).
Del, if you read this, thank you again for your hospitality. Remember that some Boston and Toronto climbers appreciated your brand of selfless hospitality. And if you decide you want to re-open some day, I have a suggestion. Find a couple folks who are road tripping for a while. Let them crash for a while and put them in charge of collecting the daily fee. I understand that Miguel at the Red sometimes employs longer-term trippers to do such work.
The whole time we were visiting we were very comfortable and felt really good that the world still has folks who will let you crash and supply you with ammenities for such a small fee. I like free camping but I loved your place and would gladly pay 5-10 a night to stay there.
Let us know if you open again, I've been looking forward to returning.
jeremy
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