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maculated
Jul 7, 2003, 7:58 PM
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I got into a heated debate with a friend of mine about the merits of ASCA.
Your opinions, please.
Mine? I said that if I climbed in an area affect by AF, I'd join. So I did.
I said that if I clipped an ASCA bolt, I'd join. So I did. But now I hear a lot about the retrobolting going on. I don't think this is a major major problem with the organization, so what really got me was my friends' take on responsibility.
In a nutshell, he said that if bolts were unsafe, it should be up to that climber to know how to cut and replace them. Every climber should be able, and ready, to do so. It should not be put into the hands of an organization to make the routes safer, and sometimes they shouldn't be.
I think that ASCA is a good thing in that the routes that *I* have seen affected were all for the positive. Manky bolts being magically replaced by solid ones. I see nothing wrong with improve the established protection, and I support those who do this, so long as they abide by the FA's wishes.
Your thoughts?
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criscokid
Jul 7, 2003, 8:28 PM
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i wish that every climber new enough about the sport that they could take care of their own problems...but that will never happen. as is...i think that the asca is great!!! plus i know that chris and the other founding guys are good traditional guys who are not retro bolting. i would rather have them replace bolts than most of the other guys out there. plus they are replacing bolts on cliffs that the rest of us would rather just climb and leave. GO CHRIS! keep up the good work.
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tradclimber2
Jul 7, 2003, 8:43 PM
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In reply to: ...........But now I hear a lot about the retrobolting going on. I don't think this is a major major problem with the organization, so what really got me was my friends' take on responsibility. In a nutshell, he said that if bolts were unsafe, it should be up to that climber to know how to cut and replace them. Every climber should be able, and ready, to do so. It should not be put into the hands of an organization to make the routes safer, and sometimes they shouldn't be.
Your friend thinking that 'every climber should be able to replace bolts' may be a good idea - BUT, only if the person knows HOW to replace the bolts correctly (most people do not!) - the ASCA does know how to replace them correctly. Rebolting was not 'put in the hands of an organization to make the routes safer', as I gather your friend seems to think. The ASCA took it upon themselves to do this - I really do not think the ASCA is hired to replace bolts. Maybe your friend should contact ASCA and arrange to meet and discuss the issues.
Kristin, good for you to be a member. GEt your friend to look at this differently. The ASCA is a good organization and does a good thing. Lets not mess up a good thing - we should all support them, in whatever capacity we can. Ben
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maculated
Jul 7, 2003, 9:27 PM
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Retro is indeed adding bolts to a climb.
I am in support of Chris Mac as well (just check out the thanks sections of his books), but . . . I'm just curious if there's a side to this I'm not seeing.
Admittedly, my friend is a serious hardman. He has a philosophy that sometimes you do a climb where you just 'can't fall' and that's okay with him. I wouldn't do a route like that, but he objects to making them safer . . . part of the sport of the whole thing.
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tradclimber2
Jul 7, 2003, 10:01 PM
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Your friend has a good philosophy, Kristin. BUT, and pass this on - just replacing an old wornout 1/4" buttonhead with a good hanger is making the route safer, not easier. And there is nothing wrong with that. If a 'hardman' wants to climb the route using the old bolts, then might as well just do the route solo, as the old bolts may not hold a fall anyway. I fully agree with the concept of NOT changing a route's difficulty - changing the bolts does NOT change a route's difficulty. Putting in shiny new bomber rawls do not take a 5.10d route to a 5.10a - at least I don't THINK so............but I often don't think (most of the time I DO stop to think, but forget to start again).
Ben
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maculated
Jul 7, 2003, 10:16 PM
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Ben,
His point was that the climbers should be responsible for replacing crummy bolts, not an organization.
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murf
Jul 7, 2003, 10:30 PM
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In reply to: Ben, His point was that the climbers should be responsible for replacing crummy bolts, not an organization.
I think calling the ASCA an "organization" as if it were a multinational, is a bit misleading. It is I believe, at its heart, a one man band. Greg Barnes took over the reins from Chris. Its my understanding that most of the work is done by Greg with climbers local to that particular area. The ASCA supplies the hardware, which is supported by climbers. At the end of the day, the organization allows for a centerpoint for dollars, equipment and information.
IMHO most climbers don't have the experience to chop, let alone place bolts. Those that do are probably putting up new ones...
I seem to remember some discussing of retrobolting on supertopo, but Greg B. can immediately to the discussion and cleared it up. I do not, however, remember the resolution. You could probably find it yourself.
I suspect Greg B. will proffer his side here presently, as he does post on rc.com periodically. Until then, I think your prominent climber friend is off base on this one.
Murf
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dsafanda
Jul 7, 2003, 11:18 PM
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In reply to: climbers should be responsible for replacing crummy bolts, not an organization.
Don't think for second that there is some large corporate organization behind the ASCA. The ASCA is a very small grass roots network of hard core "climbers". They(primarily Greg Barnes and Chris McNamara) work directly with the local climbing community and primarily serve only to supply the hardware and a bit of technical guidance if necessary. It is usually the local climbers themselves who are physically replacing bolts.
Note.
Oops! Murf beat me to it. I just ened up repeating what was just said.
Anyway...the mission of the ASCA is not complicated. They exist as a resource for replacing(not retrobolting!) unsafe anchors. Nothing more, nothing less. If one can come up with a good reason for preserving bad bolts perhaps there is room for discussion. Otherwise, I can't think of a single reason to begrudge the ASCA for the thousands of hours of thankless work that they've provided so that the rest of us can enjoy climbing instead of drilling.
http://www.safanda.com/misc/bolts.jpg
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maculated
Jul 7, 2003, 11:23 PM
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Don't worry, I don't. I know what's going on. I am just posting this for the sake of the 'other opinion.' Having helped out on the SuperTopos, I get a lot of shit from people who don't like them. It is overflowing into ASCA, and I just wanted other takes.
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tradmanclimbs
Jul 7, 2003, 11:37 PM
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THIS TOPIC SHOULD NEVER HAVE HAPPENED!!!! The ASCA is a couple of guys who have the energy and good will to replace old crappy anchors at their own cost or with a lot of effort to raise the funds while still provideing the labor and someone doubts their efforts? SHAME ON YOU!!!!!
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tradclimber2
Jul 7, 2003, 11:42 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: climbers should be responsible for replacing crummy bolts, not an organization. Don't think for second that there is some large corporate organization behind the ASCA. The ASCA is a very small grass roots network of hard core "climbers". They(primarily Greg Barnes and Chris McNamara) work directly with the local climbing community and primarily serve only to supply the hardware and a bit of technical guidance if necessary. It is usually the local climbers themselves who are physically replacing bolts. Note. Oops! Murf beat me to it. I just ened up repeating what was just said. Anyway...the mission of the ASCA is not complicated. They exist as a resource for replacing(not retrobolting!) unsafe anchors. Nothing more, nothing less. If one can come up with a good reason for preserving bad bolts perhaps there is room for discussion. Otherwise, I can't think of a single reason to begrudge the ASCA for the thousands of hours of thankless work that they've provided so that the rest of us can enjoy climbing instead of drilling. |
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mesomorf
Jul 8, 2003, 12:41 AM
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I believe it was Groucho Marx who said, "I wouldn't belong to any club that would have ME as a member."
That's the ASCA. The most non-organized organization there is.
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timstich
Jul 8, 2003, 3:26 AM
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Yep. ASCA is the equivalent of having your big brother join you at the crag to help fix bolts. Which is nice, since bro usually has some money he scrounged and he usually doesn't forget his tools. In many cases it's just Greg and Chris and whoever they can get to hump loads. ASCA is just a few dedicated dudes. I send my checks free from guilt by association! They rock hard.
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tahquitztwo
Jul 13, 2003, 6:19 AM
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Just got back from a trip up to Touloumne Meadows and climbing with Greg and company. Shame on anyone who doubts ASCAs motives :evil: ...and/or climbs but doesn't contribute a little something once in a while to get a few bolts that might save their sorry **** sometime in the future. I've seen the bolts that Greg and his dedicated helpers replace. Next time you're out climbing and hear that "tap, tap, tap" figure it's not a woodpecker but Greg or someone else replacing some crappy bolt that often is just sitting there waiting to surprise some poor dude!
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apollodorus
Jul 13, 2003, 6:48 AM
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The ASCA doesn't want to be involved with adding any new bolts to routes, even if the FA team approves of beefing up the belays. Apparently, they received a ton of e-mail over some new hole at the Manure Pile Buttress that offended someone. The issue with them is not whether or not they are doing the right thing, but how to avoid the deluge of hate-spam that follows.
Recently, the ASCA declined to offer PTPP and myself new stainless bolts and hangers to replace existing mank on Bermuda Dunes on El Cap. The route has had only a few ascents since the FA in 1983, and the bolts were really bad. But, before we could get to the wall, a certain person created a furor over his perceived clairvoyance that we were going to add bolts. So, Chris Mac said he couldn't risk giving us bolts and hangers to use; he simply doesn't have the time to deal with hate-spam.
Luckily, though, certain other climbers fell all over themselves to give us their bolts and hangers, so the job was completed as intended. And the ASCA gave us their seal of approval after the fact.
The ASCA is interested in education, as well as the actual rebolting of climbs. Their website at http://www.safeclimbing.org offers information about pulling old bolts, redrilling the holes larger and installing the correct new hardware. If you intend to do any rebolting, you should first check out their website, and then practice on talus boulders before heading up on a route.
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timstich
Jul 13, 2003, 11:58 AM
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In reply to: Just got back from a trip up to Touloumne Meadows and climbing with Greg and company. Shame on anyone who doubts ASCAs motives :evil: ...
It's OK to doubt things. Sketicism is healthy. The original poster didn't slag ASCA and was just fishing for opinions about the organization. So far 100% respondants approve of ASCAs methods and would give left nut to them if it possessed any monetary or commercial value. I'm sure that original poster is now leaning towards the consensus view of "no doubt duuuuude! ASCA rawwwwks!" So all is sweet in the land.
Well, off to sweat it out at the humid Texas crag.
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boltdude
Jul 14, 2003, 1:01 AM
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Ideally, everyone would be prepared to deal with anything they run across. That's a bit much to ask for most climbers, especially in this day & age where hammers are unheard of on free climbs. Also, of course, many areas are in Wilderness, and hand drill replacement just takes way too long for most people to do it.
Most climbers stick to a relatively small set of popular routes, and guides and local climbers have been maintaining the fixed anchors for years. The ASCA just allows for more people to donate money to buy better gear, which we then get to that same small population of local route maintainers (at least half of whom are guides & SAR folks). I think we do a good job of replacing original while removing added bolts, but we make mistakes, and it's hardest to get things straight on big walls where people have been adding and chopping and drilling for 30 years, and often there is no good record of the first ascent.
But maculated's friend has a point: if you want to do older, more obscure routes, especially ones with little chance of backing up fixed anchors with your own pro, you ought to learn how to judge and replace old bolts. There are a LOT of climbs out there, especially harder and more obscure traditionally bolted faces, which you really need a bolt kit with you if you want that ancient 2-bolt belay to hold...
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atg200
Jul 14, 2003, 1:51 PM
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i'm not a fan of bolts, and i still send the ASCA some money every year. the rebolting information on their website alone is worth a contribution, but most of the rebolting is fine with me. the main objection i've seen is that people don't want bolt ladders on big walls turned into 3/8" clip ups, but even this seems to be pretty resolved(at least i approve of what i saw in the thread about rebolting tis-a-sack on supertopo).
how many people know how to rebolt? how many of them carry a bolt kit all the time? even if you do, how many people actually take the time to rebolt? i know i've brought a bolt kit up lots of desert towers intending to replace a bolt or two, but an epic/laziness/darkness/cold/heat/wanting beer always sets in and i don't bother. i'm pretty damn happy somebody is out there doing what i am to lazy to do.
the other that people don't seem to understand is that most of those 1/4" bolts were pretty bomber when placed. replacing them with 3/8" bolts doesn't change the experience much from the second ascent(no one gets the first ascent experience again on bolted routes, and who wants to? drilling sucks), but sure makes the routes last longer before another upgrade is needed.
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dingus
Jul 14, 2003, 3:14 PM
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Tell your Bro that climbers SHOULD be prepared to deal with what they encounter, I agree. Then remind him that many, perhaps even most of us, are not equipped to deal with literally *anything* we might encounter on a route. So we have to make decisions based upon probability, rack size, sack size and pocket book depth. I reckon a bolt kit is about last on most people's list of things to take climbing.
Ask your budd if he feels the same about a rescue... HIS rescue. Remind him as he's laying there bleeding (figuratively!), with crushed bones and I don't know, a sucking chest wound, that a good climber should be prepared and self-sufficient and to please get his ass off the ground so he can give you a belay!
And finally, I don't know about you and your pal, but personally, the thought of any Tom, Dick or Jane drilling and placing bolts on crags I'm likely to frequent sends cold shivers down my spine. Me? I don't want *just anyone* placing or replacing bolts.
Go ASCA!
DMT
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dingus
Jul 14, 2003, 3:17 PM
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And the simple answer:
Next time you and your partner are out climbing, start pointing out other climbing parties and asking your partner:
"You want to clip bolts that THAT person placed? How about that person? What about that one over there?"
I think your partner will quickly see the error of his ways.
ASCA is like god... if it didn't exist someone would invent it.
DMT
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maculated
Jul 14, 2003, 3:17 PM
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Thank you for turning this into an intelligent thread. This is what I wanted to see. I'm still surprised that no one else has come forward with anti-ASCA sentiments. Works for me.
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timstich
Jul 14, 2003, 3:23 PM
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In reply to: ...And finally, I don't know about you and your pal, but personally, the thought of any Tom, Dick or Jane drilling and placing bolts on crags I'm likely to frequent sends cold shivers down my spine. Me? I don't want *just anyone* placing or replacing bolts. Go ASCA! DMT
Agreed. I'm still e-mailing Greg Barnes and comparing notes researching how to bolt, do glue-ins, etc. Have others to consult with, too. I've placed about 60 bolts on routes now over the years and still get weak kneed second guessing my work. Drilled a hole 1/4'' too short and destroyed an $8 stainless bolt the other day trying to recover the cone piece. Nearly blew my mind cursing myself for not doing it right.
Guys like the ASCA guys are now experts in the trade of fixing bolts. Expert knowledge is not easily portable from brain to brain, nor is it easily acquired. It takes time and commitment to master. Those dudes got it and that is worth its weight in gold.
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