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twrock
Jul 14, 2003, 5:42 AM
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I've used the rappel haul system before and like it a lot for soloing (aka "body haul system"). But it does require an extra rope (if you really want any measure of safety), so it isn't worth the extra weight unless the route is conducive to its use (not too traversing).
Anyone with experience on Lurking Fear that can give an opinion on how many pitches can be reasonably hauled using this method? Or do you really need to lower the bag out on most pitches, making it not worth the extra rope?
Thanks.
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apollodorus
Jul 14, 2003, 7:18 AM
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Lurking Fear is at the west end of the SW face, and relatively low angle. Any lower-outs would be on traverses and penjis, not big overhangs.
The very top is a slab, and is best dealt with a rope shuttle to get your stuff up. You take stuff out of the haul bag, clip it to the end of a rope and your partner pulls it up the slab. You pull the rope back down (with a second rope tied to it) and do it again. And again. And again.
Hauling up that slab is a legendary nightmare, but if you are solo, that'd be your only reasonable option.
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mikeehartley
Jul 14, 2003, 5:17 PM
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You don't have to have an extra rope to body haul. Since you probably aren't going to use this system on a very traversing pitch simply rap the lead rope. I do this and clean most of the gear, depending on how steep/traversing the pitch is, on the rappel.
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flamer
Jul 14, 2003, 5:39 PM
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Having just done the route in May, There are a number of pitch's where body hauling would be quite effective. Mostly on the first half of the route. In regard's to the upper pitchs, There are 2 where it would be a pain to haul in the traditional methods while soloing. And You would not want to body haul these pitchs. There are 2 (maybe3) pitchs that traverse enough that you wouldn't want to body haul. My partner and I had absolutly no trouble hauling with a standard 1:1 on any pitch, there where a couple of spots (up high) where the second had to free the bag but nothing out of the ordinary. I would not suggest a "rope shuttle" as this is not needed and would be a complete waste of time. For the lower angle stuff up top I would suggest using a far end hauler. A friend soloed the route about a week after us and far end hauled a couple of lower angle pitchs, he said this work well.
If you want any more info. from someone who's done the route(and recently) feel free to PM me. Have fun it's a great route!
josh
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twrock
Jul 18, 2003, 4:57 AM
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In reply to: You don't have to have an extra rope to body haul.
Thanks for the input.
In reply to: If you want any more info. from someone who's done the route(and recently) feel free to PM me.
I will be taking you up on this offer. Thanks.
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passthepitonspete
Jul 23, 2003, 4:20 PM
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Shall we consider this your Big Announcement, in the Aid Climbing Forum tradition?
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twrock
Jul 24, 2003, 12:13 AM
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No, no big announcement from me. I'm just researching possibilities.
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passthepitonspete
Jul 24, 2003, 2:14 PM
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OK, I'm lost here. Can you please explain further?
What do you mean by the "body haul system"?
Do you mean Double Tagging?
If so, I have used this system on my solo of Native Son. I found it complicated and cumbersome, and not worth the extra hassle. The ideal amount of weight to haul in this method is about 60% of your body weight.
To me, it just ain't worth the bother! I would rather work a bit harder on the haul, than set up all the extra stuff. It's just too time consuming, and too difficult to set up right!
The potential for clusterf*ckage is enormous! Plus it's incredibly dangerous and has great potential to result in death if you somehow manage to take a big whipper [unlikely on an easy route like Lurking Fear, but always a possibility] and send your tagged load plummetting.
If this is the system you are using, can you please explain:
How would you do this using less than three ropes [lead, haul, double tag]?
How will you safely attach your double tag load to the lower anchor?
Do you use a Solo Tag Rack to pull up the tops of your two extra ropes? Or do you {shudder} attach the ropes to your harness?
Have you considered the possibility of a catostrophic fall?
Are you up to the clusterf*ckage?
To me - having used it on one hard big wall solo - it just ain't worth it.
But it sure sounded good in theory, at least until I tried it for real....
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mikeehartley
Jul 25, 2003, 2:04 AM
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Pete,
I'd be interested to hear your thoughts. I "body haul" on straight up, or slightly traversing pitches only. I do so with only two ropes. I take everything with me on the lead and don't use any tag line. The bag is hanging on a fifi. Sometimes I'll extend it on slings lower than (and under) the anchor cordelette so that it won't lift up on the bag in the event of a fall. Just in case the fifi does come off the anchor I have the haul line attached to an anchor biner a foot or so from the fifi with a mule or "slippery hitch" or two. This allows me the comfort of at least fooling myself that its not instant death if the bag/fifi work loose. It feels like a fair backup. The rest of the haul line is in a rope bag. After leading the pitch of course the haul line runs through your pulley (pro traction for me). I pull up all of the slack on the haul and clip it to me. I rap the lead line cleaning as much pro as I go. The bag comes up (usually) effortlessly as I go down.
For the paranoid like myself its nice to be able to clip the haul line to me incrementally as I jug so I don't have to fret as much about the lead rope sawing over an edge.
I don't haul the loads you do but its worked very well with loads of 125 lbs or so.
Make any sense?
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epic_ed
Jul 25, 2003, 4:44 AM
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I'm wondering how the haul bag comes up as you're rappeling down if it is anchored in any way -- slippery mule knot or otherwise. Seems to me this only works if you are able to successfully lift the fifi on the haul bag off the anchor and continue downward as the bag comes up. How would you/do you undo the knot at the lower belay?
Ed
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mikeehartley
Jul 25, 2003, 1:47 PM
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U2top -
I don't have (or make) the time to give the detail that PTPP does but the bag isn't really anchored. It hangs from the anchor on a fifi hook in such a way that pulling up on the haul line lifts the hook off the anchor. I use a klemheist knot attached to the fifi then to the haul line to do this. The mule/slippery hitch is tied to an anchor biner so that tension on the bag side tightens the knot but tension on the climber side unties it allowing the hook/bag to be raised. If you didn't have the mule knot as a backup and the bag accidentally came off the anchor (with say 100' of slack on a static rope) it would be a memorably bad day.
Hope this makes sense. Yes, there is some risk in doing the above but the use of several mule knots makes me feel that it isn't totally hair brain. I think normal hauling is one of the most boring tasks in the world and body hauling when soloing is quicker, easier, and I'm tied into two ropes when rappelling and jugging. I welcome any feedback that may save my chubby ass someday if there is an error in this procedure.
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flamer
Jul 25, 2003, 5:51 PM
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Mr. Hartley, What an ingenious idea! The Rap hauling system/using a fifi at the anchor has been around for years, but this is the first time I've heard of a back up to the bag coming off the anchor!! Good stuff!!
On a side note are you the coach for the Colorado Avalanch?? :)
josh
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epic_ed
Jul 25, 2003, 5:56 PM
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In reply to: U2top - I don't have (or make) the time to give the detail that PTPP does but the bag isn't really anchored. It hangs from the anchor on a fifi hook in such a way that pulling up on the haul line lifts the hook off the anchor. I use a klemheist knot attached to the fifi then to the haul line to do this. The mule/slippery hitch is tied to an anchor biner so that tension on the bag side tightens the knot but tension on the climber side unties it allowing the hook/bag to be raised. If you didn't have the mule knot as a backup and the bag accidentally came off the anchor (with say 100' of slack on a static rope) it would be a memorably bad day. Hope this makes sense. Yes, there is some risk in doing the above but the use of several mule knots makes me feel that it isn't totally hair brain. I think normal hauling is one of the most boring tasks in the world and body hauling when soloing is quicker, easier, and I'm tied into two ropes when rappelling and jugging. I welcome any feedback that may save my chubby ass someday if there is an error in this procedure.
Good enough. We only need one PTPP, anyway. :P Yep. I see what you're saying. I see how an autoblock and/or mule knots would make it possible to pull upward and release, but still hold a downward pull in case the bags came off the fifi. I just couldn't think of how to do that until your explanation. Good idea.
Ed
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passthepitonspete
Jul 26, 2003, 1:36 AM
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OK, I'm starting to "get it" - my confusion about two versus three ropes was my assumption that the climber was hauling two loads - a "main load", and a "partial load." In your situation, you just have the one partial load. I await twrock's response.
In reply to: "The Rap hauling system/using a fifi at the anchor has been around for years, but this is the first time I've heard of a back up to the bag coming off the anchor!!
I've already described this method of backup in this post in the Aid Forum. It's analogous to the "slippery overhand" system I use to back up my Solo Tag Rack.
In fact, you can see a fairly detailed diagram showing this backup system in this photo I published here at RC.com. Look for the "transient slip-knot backup crab" above the mini-haul load, the one with the ghetto blaster attached.
I'm pretty sure Chongo discussed this as well some five or six years ago in his Complete Book of Big Wall Climbing, which is rather harder to obtain than even hens' teeth.
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flamer
Jul 27, 2003, 5:06 AM
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Gees Pete I'm sorry! I don't read your post's!
josh
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slabbyd
Aug 22, 2003, 10:49 PM
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** Big Wall Theory **
If you're going to body haul, make a duct-tape-haul-loop on your harness. Clip the haul line directly into this. With a little practice you should be able to create something that will fail under moderate loads (say 50+ lbs?) should your fifi'd haul bag cut loose. You'll loose all your gear and be stuck on the wall with one rope but at least you won't be dead (yet :wink: ).
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flamer
Aug 22, 2003, 11:29 PM
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In reply to: ** Big Wall Theory ** If you're going to body haul, make a duct-tape-haul-loop on your harness. Clip the haul line directly into this. With a little practice you should be able to create something that will fail under moderate loads (say 50+ lbs?) should your fifi'd haul bag cut loose. You'll loose all your gear and be stuck on the wall with one rope but at least you won't be dead (yet :wink: ).
Ya' know- That might just work! In theory of course! Hmmmm....
Maybe yates could make a"tear away" loop of webbing similiar to screamers...only It would come completly off when weighted over 50 lbs. or something?
Very interesting....
josh
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