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adeptus


Jul 11, 2003, 12:30 PM
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Climbing with half ropes
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Q1. I was wondering if itīs possible to climb single pitch routes with only one strand of half rope?
I figured that as long as you can place protection so that the fall factor wanīt be more than 1 the rope shouldnīt break.

Q2. If you fall on a multi picth and load one rope with a factor of say 1.3, will it then break?
Cause that seems to be the scenario if you pull a piece and fall further than you originally calculated.

(I asked a similar question in the aid forum but i guess that the answer will be easier to find here, since very few aid climbers use half ropes).


ricardol


Jul 11, 2003, 12:44 PM
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all your falls on 1/2 ropes are caught only by 1 rope .. so my guess (and a bad guess at that) is that it would probably work ..

.. i have seen people do sport routes with 1 half rope ...

.. a benefit of 1/2 ropes is that if a piece pulls after the rope has already stretched -- the other 1/2 rope will catch on your next piece (if you alternated) and you will gain the benefit of the rope's dynamic ability all over again .. rather than shock loading the next piece .. --

-- ricardo


pico23


Jul 11, 2003, 1:44 PM
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In reply to:
all your falls on 1/2 ropes are caught only by 1 rope .. so my guess (and a bad guess at that) is that it would probably work ..

.. i have seen people do sport routes with 1 half rope ...

.. a benefit of 1/2 ropes is that if a piece pulls after the rope has already stretched -- the other 1/2 rope will catch on your next piece (if you alternated) and you will gain the benefit of the rope's dynamic ability all over again .. rather than shock loading the next piece .. --

-- ricardo

Yep. That would be my guess as well since only one rope takes a fall at any given time. I've asked the same question my self a few times and never gotten a real answer, just speculation or "it will be ok as long as you are just using it for a pitch you won't fall on lead, to bring a second up on TR."

So I continue the speculation in saying I'm not really sure but I have used a 8mm dynamic glacier rope for taking a less confident second up exposed 4th class pitches as well as, simul climbing easy technical terrain, hauling my dog, and rappelling.


sspssp


Jul 11, 2003, 1:49 PM
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In reply to:
Q2. If you fall on a multi picth and load one rope with a factor of say 1.3, will it then break?
Cause that seems to be the scenario if you pull a piece and fall further than you originally calculated.

Ropes breaking are extremely unlikely. It is possible to cut a rope over a sharp edge (and smaller diameter ropes are more likely to do so), but this is also, thankfully, quite rare.

The biggest dangers with a heavy loading of a single 1/2 rope: first, it will stretch a long ways (how far are you from the ground/ledges etc.). Second, after stretching a long ways, the forces can shoot up as the rope gets closer to its maximum elongation (this is more likely if the rope is older, has held more falls, and is already sort of stretched out).

All-in-all, you can probably get away with it. I wouldn't recommend making a habit of it.

Another thing to keep in mind, 1/2 ropes are used (and designed for) primarily ice climbing. In ice climbing, the biggest danger is pulling ice screws out (as opposed to hitting ledges), so the ropes tend to be designed to stretch a long ways and keep the forces down. This is fine for rock climbing, as long as you don't fall so far that you hit something. Personally, I like the 1/2 and double ropes for rock climbing, but I wish they weren't so stretchy.


tradklime


Jul 11, 2003, 2:16 PM
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Half ropes are tested in the same methods as singles, except with only 55kg. To many factors to determine if and when a rope may or may not break. Understand that you are dealing with a rope that is tested with less weight than a single, not designed as a single rope, and is more susceptible to cutting because of the small diameter, and then make your own decision.


deadfish


Jul 11, 2003, 5:16 PM
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In reply to:
I figured that as long as you can place protection so that the fall factor wanīt be more than 1 the rope shouldnīt break.

Is all your pro bombproof? Just a thought. Anyway, I think this is interesting reading...draw your own conclusions. I use 8.5 doubles, and clip them together as twins (sometimes separate biners, sometimes not, depends on situation) occasionally to make sure both ropes will come into play before I get past a factor 1. Yes, I alternate to avoid rope drag, protect traverses, etc.

In reply to:
From; Helmut Microys, National Delegate to the UIAA Safety Commission
for the USA and Canada.


The UIAA standard deals with three different rope types: single, half
and twin. In the UIAA drop test the single rope is tested with an 80
kg mass, a single strand of half rope with a 55 kg mass and both
strands of a twin rope with 80 kg. The single and half ropes must
sustain at least five falls and twin ropes at least twelve to pass the
standard. There are also differences among these ropes for elongation
and impact force (single and twin < 12 kN; half ropes < 8 kN).

Single ropes are obviously designed to be used in a single strand.
Half ropes, or double ropes, are designed for (aid) routes with many
runners at close spacing and are then clipped in alternately. The idea
was to reduce friction, particularly in the days, when climbers used
only carabiners and no sling extensions (the rope went zig-zag). These
ropes should not be used in this way (i.e. clip in alternately), as
often happens these days, for regular routes with runners further
apart. Keep in mind that the rope is not tested with an 80 kg mass. A
single strand of half rope, when new, may just hold one fall with such
a mass.

The twin rope was designed to be used in the double strand and both
strands must be clipped in every runner. Generally these ropes have a
diameter of only 8 mm. The benefit of a twin rope is its essential
safety and the advantage in the mountains for a full length rappel.

Present day ropes will not break at a runner or at the tie-in knot of
the leader in a fall. This does not even happen with very old ropes. A
rope fails when a sharp edge cuts it. As a rope is used, the capacity
to hold a fall over a sharp edge decreases. Generally speaking, a rope
which holds many falls in the UIAA drop test will resist cutting
better than a rope which hold fewer falls.

A half rope used singly is, therefore, much more likely to be cut than
a single rope. It could potentially be used for all climbing, but you
better not plan on falling off. A twin rope is much safer, because of
the higher capacity and the redundancy (only one strand may be cut).
Using half ropes like a twin, clipping both strands in every carabiner
is, of course, the safest solution (a pair of decent half ropes,
tested like a twin rope will most likely hold over 30 falls).

The maximum allowable elongation for half ropes (10 %) is indeed
larger than for single or twin ropes (8 %), but this would hardly be
noticeable in most fall situations. Elongation is more often than not
only a problem for a second with the rope out 100 feet. An 80 kg
climber could drop eight feet under body weight even though the rope
contains no slack.

Final advice: do not use your half rope as a single strand and when
the runners are further apart, clip both strands. You only live once.

Ice climbers in USA routinely use the double rope technique placing
gear (ice screws) very sparsely using half ropes. So:
1. In this situation is the second half rope for backup purposes?

On pure ice faces and water falls, there are generally no sharp edges
and the danger of cutting a rope are greatly reduced. A new half rope
may be reasonably safe, although I would advice against it when there
is a lot of dry tooling and runners are still far apart (I personally
would not climb on it regardless of the situation). In the latter case
it may be called a back up rope, because of cutting on an edge.

When the climber is on a water fall or smooth ice face, where there is
no friction to speak of, the question can be asked, why not climb with
a single half rope and clip all the protection. The result would be
pretty well the same in a fall situation as having two ropes. If the
rope breaks, it is because the fall energy was beyond the capacity of
the rope. With two ropes clippped alternately and the runners the same
distance apart, if the first rope breaks at the first runner and the
second will fail on the one below.

One of the reason for two ropes on waterfall ice is that one must
generally rappel and two ropes get you down faster and cheaper.

2. If I were to clip both half ropes together into one carabiner,
wouldn't that increase the load on the protection beyond safety levels
for the carabiners and protection as opposed to a single or twin
setup?

Using two half ropes clipped in together will produce forces on the
protection higher than when using a single rope. Twin ropes act like a
single rope.

The forces in the system are, however, determined by the belay method.
Any modern dynamic belay method will limit the forces inherent in the
device. The impact force (the maximum obtained during the UIAA drop
test) and provided on the rope tag, is of no consequence. Thus the
forces generated, particularly in a near frictionless system, which
may occur on a waterfall, are not very high.

These forces are, as a rule, vastly below the capacity of any
equipment (carabiners, ice screws, pitons, slings, etc.). The problem
lies in the holding capacity of the ice screw, piton, nut, etc. If the
ice is of poor quality, a screw capable of holding 20 kN in good ice
is no more helpful than a coat hanger, if that is the holding power of
the ice.

So in a scary, poor ice, situation the only thing, which may be of
value, is to put protection at very close spacing. That unfortunately
is often not possible. But it would help to clip both ropes in the
last bomber protection.

3. How soon/often do I have to retire the half ropes provided I take
falls on them (very few climbers are 55kg and under, I am 90kg)?

If there are no sharp edges, a rope could most likely be used until
the mantle starts shredding and can no longer be used in a belay
device. This applies mainly to a single rope. The half rope is simply
not designed to take major leader falls. But as mentioned before, the
forces in the system are determined by the belay device. With a
properly working dynamic belay, not much will happen to the rope. Do
not belay with a static belay device such as a Grigri, which should be
used for top roping only.

4. Is the conclusion that one just should not buy or use half ropes?
Or they are still manufactured for cases where falls are not dead
vertical, in alpine terrain wit lots of rope drag? Or perhaps they are
manufactured out of inertia and for marketing purposes?

They are most useful in alpine terrain where lots of friction may
result, if the ropes are clipped in all the runners. An additional
advantage is that there is a backup rope of sufficient capacity,
should a rope be cut by rock fall. Finally the rope offers redundancy
in the case of sharp edges. Double ropes have more holding capacity
over an edge to start with. Even if both ropes run over the same sharp
edge, it is less likely both get cut because one will get loaded more
than the other. In a retreat, being able to rappel the full length of
the rope is invaluable.

The other option is to climb with twin ropes. Extra edge strength
(remember twelve UIAA falls minimum), redundancy, lighter ropes, in a
severe case the option of clipping in alternately, rappel convenience.

I personally have not owned a single rope for at least 25 years. I
used to climb with two half ropes and clipped them together when it
was suitable.

Now I climb with twin ropes. I use these ropes in any terrain.


iamthewallress


Jul 11, 2003, 5:32 PM
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I was responding over in aid too. I guess I'm still confused about why you want to do this? Do you not own a single rope?

The scenario when _really_ skinny ropes get used as singles most often seems to be on alpine routes where every ounce counts since speed is safety and when no one is actually expecting to fall in the first place.

It would seem for single pitch you might want a really light rope if you are going for a really hard red point and every ounce counts. Of course, you probably would also be expecting to fall in that case. Usually the lower 9's is as far as I see sport climbers push this...because of the rope cutting, because of the potential to deck or hit obsticles as the rope stretches, because an 8.1 taking repeated lead falls will wear out right quickly.

If you ever have the oportunity, cut a hunk off the end of a taught 10.2 and then do it off of a taught 8mm rope. I've TRed off of my twins, but it's creepy having done that experiment.

If your gear is super marginal (the reason that you put forth in Aid), use screamers or scream aids.


dirtineye


Jul 11, 2003, 6:22 PM
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[quote="deadfish"]
In reply to:
I figured that as long as you can place protection so that the fall factor wanīt be more than 1 the rope shouldnīt break.

Is all your pro bombproof? Just a thought. Anyway, I think this is interesting reading...draw your own conclusions. I use 8.5 doubles, and clip them together as twins (sometimes separate biners, sometimes not, depends on situation) occasionally to make sure both ropes will come into play before I get past a factor 1. Yes, I alternate to avoid rope drag, protect traverses, etc.

In reply to:
From; Helmut Microys, National Delegate to the UIAA Safety Commission
for the USA and Canada.

SNIP

In the first place, why not just use the ropes as the maker intended?

About that long quote from the uiaa guy, how old is it?


pico23


Jul 11, 2003, 11:19 PM
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In reply to:
In reply to:
I figured that as long as you can place protection so that the fall factor wanīt be more than 1 the rope shouldnīt break.

Is all your pro bombproof? Just a thought. Anyway, I think this is interesting reading...draw your own conclusions. I use 8.5 doubles, and clip them together as twins (sometimes separate biners, sometimes not, depends on situation) occasionally to make sure both ropes will come into play before I get past a factor 1. Yes, I alternate to avoid rope drag, protect traverses, etc.

In reply to:
From; Helmut Microys, National Delegate to the UIAA Safety Commission
for the USA and Canada.


A half rope used singly is, therefore, much more likely to be cut than
a single rope. It could potentially be used for all climbing, but you
better not plan on falling off. A twin rope is much safer, because of
the higher capacity and the redundancy (only one strand may be cut).
Using half ropes like a twin, clipping both strands in every carabiner
is, of course, the safest solution (a pair of decent half ropes,
tested like a twin rope will most likely hold over 30 falls).


This is terrible advice. Against every modern piece of literature I've ever read, against every modern bit of advice I've ever received from better more experienced climbers then myself, against manufacturer recommendations.

Is this qoute (in it's entirety for real). The internet is a great resource but people can't just blindly believe everything they read. I'm calling this a BS regardless of UIAA in the top of the qoute. Show me another resource that stands by this quoute. It looks like a troll to me. Deadphish, I'm not calling you a troll BTW, I'm just saying this UIAA qoute seems falacious. If this were at all the case please show up to the Gunks for rock or any other venue in the Northeast for ice and tell every climber on doubles (1/2 ropes) that they are incorrectly using there ropes. Inform the guides the same thing. I've never read of a single death or injury from a 1/2 rope breaking nor have I heard of clipping halfs into every piece placed. As a matter of fact all the information points to avoiding placing doubles into a single piece because it will cause impact forces to be above that of even a fat single rope (with the exception of a Beal rope (i think) that can be used as a twin or double).


Anyway the wording of Helmuts post seems a bit trollish. Maybe I'm wrong but this if nothing else is a clear reason to check and double check everything you read on the internet.


adeptus


Jul 12, 2003, 2:15 AM
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What I understand is, that clipping both strands of a half rope will increase the impact force. But as long as the fall factor will by above 0.9, I was told that there is a risk of breaking a single strand of half rope. So you should clip both strands for the first few placements and after you gain some height you can clip alternately. Is this is how half ropes are properly used?

You only rely on a single strand of half rope as you climb higher on a route. So if you pull as piece of gear you could experience a fall factor above 1 by falling past the belayer on multi pitch. Would this mean failure of the rope?

It`s not possible to have a fall factor close to 1 on a single pitch climb because the rope stretch will most likely make you hit the ground. In this case the you can`t actually make a single strand of half rope break on a single pitch climb. From this I can only conclude that it is safe to climb on a single strand of half rope on a single pitch climb (sport or well protected trad) as long as you space the protection so that a ground fall is avoided.
Do you agree?


brutusofwyde


Jul 12, 2003, 7:49 AM
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No.

Brutus of Wyde
Old Climbers' Home
Oakland, California


bumpkin


Jul 12, 2003, 8:52 AM
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In reply to:
So you should clip both strands for the first few placements and after you gain some height you can clip alternately. Is this is how half ropes are properly used?
....
Do you agree?

This is asking for trouble. Either clip both ropes at every piece, or clip single ropes. Never mix it up on a pitch (actually you might get away with it if you clip seperate runners on a single piece). The drag becomes intense and you can easily get cross-loading of carabiners.

Some other stuff:

One poster claimed halfropes were used "mostly for ice". Tell this to any British climber. Or most climbers at the Gunks.

The UIAA (?) dude claimed half-rope technique was "developed for aid". Maybe that's how it started (???), but half-rope technique gets its broadest use at trad crags and on long alpine routes.

The advantages of half-ropes for decreasing rope drag and allowing full rappels are what makes me rely on them almost exclusively (not for TR'ing or sport, but I rarely do either). I get a particular feeling of satisfaction looking down at a hard devious pitch with tricky pro all over the place threaded by two independent, straight running ropes...

I am curious about discussion about impact force, elongation etc. and am following this thread with interest.


alpnclmbr1


Jul 12, 2003, 11:31 AM
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From gunks.com
In reply to:
Wouldn't it be safer
to clip both ropes
through each piece?

Tests done years ago by the DAV (German Alpine Club) showed that ropes can be severely damaged and may partially melt if one rope runs over the other while the ropes are loaded. (For the same reason, rap rings are used on rap anchors so that there is no movement of ropes over webbing under load.) Since it's almost impossible to eliminate some slippage of a lead rope in a fall (this applies to single rope belays too) don't run both ropes through a single karabiner. Double ropes are each strong enough to hold any fall you may take.

There is a "twin ropes" technique, where both ropes are clipped into every piece, but it has largely fallen (no pun) into disfavor. Occasionally you will see ropes sold as "twin ropes" in catalogs: avoid them, "double ropes" is what we are discussing here. Current double ropes are each about 8.6mm to 9.0mm in diameter; twin ropes are usually 8.0mm or thinner.

I have 8.1's that are rated for both techniques,
BTW an atc is not rated for anything under 8.6???
anyway I use trango jaws for my skinny ropes
Don't climb on just one skinny double
9ml is alright in the mountains according to croft.


alpnclmbr1


Jul 12, 2003, 12:00 PM
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Question? Does anybody know who was a making ropes for black diamond around 4 years ago, I have a pair of 8.1 half ropes that I believe were rated for use as a twin to but am not positive anymore.

btw. I have taken good care of them and they feel good still, so I do trust them.


brotchbrody


Jul 12, 2003, 1:51 PM
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In reply to:
I have 8.1's that are rated for both techniques,
BTW an atc is not rated for anything under 8.6???

I was curious:

ATC (from BD's site): Locks up well with 9-11 mm ropes

Reverso (from petzl's):
Can be used with:
8-9 mm double dynamic rope
or 10-11mm single dynamic rope

edited to add: and IMHO using any gear in a way not recomended by the manufacturer, is just asking for trouble. Especially a rope where there is no redundancy (i.e. using a double as a single). Given the end result if it does fail, is it really worth it???


helvellyn


Jul 12, 2003, 1:58 PM
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Since when have "Doubles" been mainly for Ice climbing as far as I'm aware there designed for Traditional Rock routes, alpine or winter climbing.

Over here in England the vast majority of climbers (Trad) use doubles for both multi and single pitch rock/snow/ice routes. The main reason for the double is to reduce rope drag on routes that meander, improve safety and allow double distance abseils.

I've always been told/instructed never clip both ropes into the same gear placement and if you do then attach them using different carabiners to limit the chances of cross loading a crab. Also seriously try never to zig zag/cross the ropes not always possible but.... 1) increasing rope drag 2) chance of sideways stress on the protection.

as for 1 half holding a fall It should (as far as I'm aware) as its usually one strand that takes the fall as the other will be tightish as your reaching and clipping. (ie slack strand being clipped, other should have tension onit to hold any possible fall at its nearest gear placement)


adeptus


Jul 14, 2003, 2:19 AM
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In reply to:
...as for 1 half holding a fall It should (as far as I'm aware) as its usually one strand that takes the fall as the other will be tightish as your reaching and clipping. (ie slack strand being clipped, other should have tension onit to hold any possible fall at its nearest gear placement)
This is exactly what I was looking for. I think that the because half ropes are more dynamic and therefore stretch more than single ropes they have lower impact force and thus compensate for the strength difference compared to single ropes.
Not that it should be recommended, but it would be safe enough to lead on a single strand of half rope on a single pitch climb. If this wasn't the case, it wouldn't be safe to lead with half ropes, as you sometimes rely on only one strand of rope.


dirtineye


Jul 14, 2003, 5:09 AM
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I look forward to reading about you in injuries and accidents.


helvellyn


Jul 14, 2003, 9:07 AM
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In reply to adeptus:

I still wouldn't like to take a whipper on to it or fall from above with slack in a half rope as to what happens when leading with a single. I think the strain may be a little to much from a height. (safest bet use the rope as to how it was designed as a PAIR.)

Why not get a lightweight single? ie 9.4mm or 9.7mm (than you know for definate that it should hold).

I guess its down to you but I wouldn't like to lead a wall were a vertical fall is likely maybe a slab but not vertical.

Check with the company who made your rope they'll tell you for sure.


sspssp


Jul 14, 2003, 9:36 AM
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I've found this thread pretty fascinating too.

The quote attributed to the UIAA guy about clipping both strands of a double to a single piece not increasing the forces on the piece in the event of a fall just doesn't sound believeable to me. Anybody else on this one?

OK, when I said that doubles were used mostly for ice, I should have added in U.S. I was aware, but had forgotten, that doubles are more common in Europe and they have long been popular in the Alpine environment.

I'll stand by my statement that twin ropes in the U.S. are primarily marketed to ice climbers. Just look at the catalogs. They have names like "ice line" etc. I assumed also that since this seems to be the primary market, that they were designing them for this environment also. Another reason why I assumed this, there seems to have been a big push by the rope manufacturers to get the maximum impact force reduced. Making the rope stretchier is the easiest way to do this. Having low-impact forces at the penalty of taking longer falls, would seem to me, to be a greater benefit ice climbing where the strength of the pro is frequently suspect, but there are typically fewer ledges and projections to hit. For the Sierra (and Yosemite) climbing that I most frequently do, I would rather have shorter falls even if the impact force is higher. Doubles may not be marketed as specifically to ice climbers as twins, but, again, the adds sure seem a lot more concerned with impact forces than with fall distances.


deadfish


Jul 14, 2003, 10:44 AM
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Re: Climbing with half ropes [In reply to]
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The quote attributed to the UIAA guy about clipping both strands of a double to a single piece not increasing the forces on the piece in the event of a fall just doesn't sound believeable to me. Anybody else on this one?

Wow...bunch of cynics. :wink: That's a good thing, by the way. In my post, where I quoted Helmut, I DID note that it was interesting reading, but you should draw your own conclusions. I don't agree with everything he says either, but it did make me think about my own protection system.

It had bothered me for awhile that the tests for doubles used only 55kg vs. 80kg for singles, the difference in the certification due to an assumption that both ropes would be involved in catching the fall. Many people I knew were using doubles on runout pro where only one rope would ever see the force of a fall. I think Helmut's ideas are interesting as they discuss some of the same concerns I have had.

As far as the "danger" of clipping both ropes together for double technique, it all depends on the situation. Yes, the impact forces will increase. With really skinny doubles, though, the impact force is still within UIAA specs for single ropes. Farther out on a pitch, with low FF falls, the impact forces can be lower anyway...all depends on the situation.

As far as clipping the ropes through the same biner, this (like all other imaginable topics) has been beaten to death on rec.climbing. I am not aware of any documented instance where this has resulted in a rope failure. If the ropes are running straight, there is little slack differential between them and very little possibility for them to run against eachother. When I am leading, if I think there will be a problem, I'll use 2 biners. Just off the ground, because of high fall factor possibilities, I'll use 2 biners for strength/redundancy.

Regarding the authenticity of the post, I believe it did in fact come from Helmut, I believe in the late 90's. If you are compelled to still question it, feel free to contact him...his contact info is posted on the web.

And like I said...draw your own conclusions. I thought Helmut had some interesting ideas that challenged some of the conventional thinking.

As far as using a single half rope to lead on...I personally think taking all the redundancy/safety factor out of your protection system is a great way to improve the gene pool.


pico23


Jul 14, 2003, 11:31 AM
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Re: Climbing with half ropes [In reply to]
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I've found this thread pretty fascinating too.

The quote attributed to the UIAA guy about clipping both strands of a double to a single piece not increasing the forces on the piece in the event of a fall just doesn't sound believeable to me. Anybody else on this one?

OK, when I said that doubles were used mostly for ice, I should have added in U.S. I was aware, but had forgotten, that doubles are more common in Europe and they have long been popular in the Alpine environment.

I'll stand by my statement that twin ropes in the U.S. are primarily marketed to ice climbers. Just look at the catalogs. They have names like "ice line" etc. I assumed also that since this seems to be the primary market, that they were designing them for this environment also..


Both in Europe and the eastern US (the Gunks for instance) double ropes are pretty popular on rock. Unless the route is plumb vertical doubles can seriously cut down on rope drag and increase safety on traverses. They also give you an increased margin of protection and lower impact force. They also facilitate fast retreats and expedited and simplified self rescue since you have 2 ropes.

Most doubles also come in both dry and non dry. I think the feeling that doubles are for ice is probably dependent on where you climb.


alpnclmbr1


Jul 14, 2003, 12:02 PM
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The most interesting thing from the euro alpine scene is that they use to have a lot of people die from getting single ropes cut. Since they switched to doubles it has dropped off a lot. As far as I know, there has never been a case of both ropes in a double system getting cut.

oh, and my 8.1's are beals.


sspssp


Jul 14, 2003, 1:32 PM
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Both in Europe and the eastern US (the Gunks for instance) double ropes are pretty popular on rock.

Ok, I've been hammered pretty good for saying doubles are mostly for ice. However, I have a question for you all. I climb a lot in Yosemite. Many of the climbers there are within a single day drive. But a lot of climbers are not. You get people from all over the county and the world. I don't remember seeing a single climbing party climbing with doubles this season. Nada. Not one. And this is something I would note because I have often debated with myself (and my partner) whether doubles is "the better way". Do Europeans (and East Coasters) leave their doubles behind when they come to the Valley? If so, why? There are a lot of meandering routes and a lot of reasons to have two ropes to rap. Or, are not that many rock climbers actually climbing on doubles.

Ok, I have my helmet on. Fire away.


davidji


Jul 14, 2003, 1:49 PM
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Do Europeans (and East Coasters) leave their doubles behind when they come to the Valley? If so, why? There are a lot of meandering routes and a lot of reasons to have two ropes to rap. Or, are not that many rock climbers actually climbing on doubles.
I don't know about the rest of Europe, but I think doubles are popular in the UK, but very unpopular in Germany, where twins (& singles) are preferred. I think some Brits who use doubles in the old country leave them home when they come to the US, because they might not find partners who like 'em here.

I can't remember seeing much doubles usage in Yosemite either. On my last trip to the Valley, I think my partner insisted on singles. FWIW, when I went to the Leap with caughtinside a couple of weeks ago, we did see another party using doubles.

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