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elrojobdugs
Jul 21, 2003, 10:58 PM
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ive been climbing for a while but with the same group and they always use a grigri to belay, no matter what... i always use an atc and from what i hear and know using a grigri to belay on trad is extremely dangerous... i dont know that much, but am i right??? why is it so dangerous... am i inclined to say something to these people... the grigri is a god to them
???
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vegastradguy
Jul 21, 2003, 11:02 PM
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provided they know what they're doing with it, there's no reason not to belay with the grigri on trad.
the only thing about trad is that you cant always see your climber, which makes you belay by feel more than sight, but if you're competent and comfortable with the grigri, more power to you.
i personally use a reverso, but i'd use a grigri if that's all I had in front of me.
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tenn_dawg
Jul 21, 2003, 11:10 PM
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There are different views on the subject.
I personally use a Gri-Gri while climbing trad, have for the last 5 years, and have taken countless falls using this setup. Not to say that it will never catch up with me, but I haven't ever had a single piece pull as a result of the grigri's "static" belay.
If on a single pitch climb, get your belayer to jump like a Gym Rat if you fall. This is the norm in sport and trad climbing, and will result in a very dynamic belay.
If climbing multipitch however, I only use ATC's. When you are clipped into a hanging belay, jumping is obviously not an option, and I must have the option of giving an old fashioned dynamic belay by letting the rope slide through the ATC before locking off.
Undoubtably, some will disagree, probably citing Petzl's phamplett that says the GriGri is not for Adventure, Trad or Aid climbing. There are probably at this moment 50 Gri-Gri's being used by belayers in yosemite Valley however. So take it with a grain of salt and make your own decisions.
Travis
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thrillseeker05
Jul 21, 2003, 11:12 PM
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I prefer a Reverso as well, but that doesn’t make using a gri gri “extremely” dangerous. Do they preach to you about what you use? If they want to deal with the pains in the a$$ of using a gri gri then let it be.
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sspssp
Jul 21, 2003, 11:40 PM
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This topic has been hashed out several times as well. The idea behind the grigri being dangerous is the fact that it can generate larger forces when catching a lead fall because the rope won't slip. Try searching on "dynamic belay" and you can read all the arguments for and against.
Personally, I think the grigri is fine for multi-pitch, but opinions do vary.
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buckyllama
Jul 22, 2003, 12:19 AM
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Extremely dangerous? hardly.
The theory is that because the Gri-gri locks up faster and more securely than a human controlling a simple friction device, the peak loads on individual pieces can be much higher.
The reality is that there are ways around this issue like the belayer jumping a-la sport climbing or using screamers on bad pieces. You are not going to rip out a bomber nut or cam by using a gri-gri.
I don't use a gri-gri on trad mainly because I use double ropes. And on multi-pitch it's just an extra heavy thing you've got to lug around.
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tradmanclimbs
Jul 22, 2003, 12:34 AM
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I ocasionaly put up new climbs on lead with all kinds of crazy hook moves and shenanigans and I have often thought that a grigri would be a good thing to have. It takes a LONG time to drill a 3/8th in. bolt by hand from a shiity stance or sketchy hook and it is hell on your belayer to hang out while you drill. This is especialy a concern if your belayer is your significant other :roll: The last rt we put up she brought a book to read while I drilled and tried not to crap my pants :shock: I think a grigri would be perfect for that kind of work but screamers would maby be needed if the gear was suspect.
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cedk
Jul 22, 2003, 12:36 AM
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For me, the reason the gri-gri sucks for trad is that the thing costs as much as a yellow alien and weighs much more. I'd rather have the cam.
I confess that I'm not too comfortable with climbing trad above one because of the static belay argument.
If you don't mind the extra weight they are the nicest thing going for belaying your second off of the anchor.
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noshoesnoshirt
Jul 22, 2003, 3:26 AM
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i found out (afterwards) my partner was asleep while i lead a two hour aid pitch on el cap. plus all the time you spend with your hands off the rope, digging for a snack or changing the tape or taking photos.
i feel pretty good about using a gri-gri on walls.
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elrojobdugs
Jul 22, 2003, 6:03 AM
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thanks i was just wondering what the pros and cons are...
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stanagesi
Jul 22, 2003, 12:15 PM
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:shock:
USing Grigri's on trad tat is just stupid. It's a great device for belaying indoors or on sport routes, but over here in UK it's been shown that it can increase the shock load on a piece of pro by 2.5 times.
QUote ' it's not gonna rip out a bomber nut' .Probaly not but it will cetainly increase the chances of it happening, and are all your nut placements bomber???
I own a grigri, they are a fantastic bit of kit for certain jobs but all gear has limitations, and there is no excuse for using one with a leader using naturally placed protection.
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tenn_dawg
Jul 22, 2003, 12:23 PM
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In reply to: :shock: USing Grigri's on trad tat is just stupid. It's a great device for belaying indoors or on sport routes, but over here in UK it's been shown that it can increase the shock load on a piece of pro by 2.5 times.
Cite a source for that, could ya please? And what exactly is "shock load".
I'd really like to see a study of the force increase on a lead piece if the grigri is used in a fall. So far I haven't seen anything. It's almost like GriGri's are in such widespread use for trad climbing, that no one wants to see a study saying it shouldn't be done.
I'd like to see one.
Travis
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redpoint73
Jul 22, 2003, 12:57 PM
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Shock load is the same as impact force or whatever you want to call it. I've heard the term "shock load" plenty of times. Usually in terms of the anchor being "shock loaded" if your setup is extensible and a piece fails. Anyway, I too would be curious to see some studies or accident reports regarding this situation.
I actually don't see a lot of climbers use Grigri's for trad in the northeast. But I think that's mostly because you will need another device if you need to double-rope rappel off the route (I'm not counting that crazy contrived way of double-rope rappelling with a Grigri).
Obviously, using a Grigri for trad is not "just stupid". I imagine many, if not most aid climbers use Grigri's. Of course, that is a situation where the increase on force on the gear is weighed against the threat of your belay falling asleep . . .
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traddad
Jul 22, 2003, 1:22 PM
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Unless you are belaying a lead climber off the anchors, there is no such thing as a static belay. Yes, a GriGri will more quickly and reliably lock up, but with slack in the system, friction over pieces, moving/accelerating body weight of the belayer, knots tightening....you get the picture, a truly static belay does not happen.
And another point....with all the new fangled belay devices coming out with teeth, jaws, gums, etc....is the "catch" on those units also becoming more "static"?
I like the Gri Gri. My wife can whip slack out like a cowgirl doing rope tricks and has never given me a bad belay. The issue with needing a second belay device to rappel is problematic, though.
Finally, can anyone tell me how to rappel with a reverso on skinny, slick, dry treated ropes without browning out your briefs? Scary.
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markc
Jul 22, 2003, 1:36 PM
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For me, it comes down to a few factors. If I'm trad climbing, I'm most likely doing multi-pitch routes. With all the other gear I'm carrying, I don't want to haul two devices for belaying and rappelling. Then I think of the bulk, weight, and cost of a Gri-Gri. I prefer to take something lighter, more multi-purpose, and affordable.
mark
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geezergecko
Jul 22, 2003, 2:01 PM
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In reply to: Finally, can anyone tell me how to rappel with a reverso on skinny, slick, dry treated ropes without browning out your briefs?
Using the reverso backwards will give you more grip and using it normal with 2 biners will give you the most grip. This is in the Petzl manual. I belay and rap on 8.5mm doubles in backwards mode. That is, the climber side is used for the brake hand and the brake side is used for the climber. Not to be confused with the auto function for belaying a second. Observant climbers will point out that I have the unit backwards but I politely tell them that this is intentional to provide more grip.
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redpoint73
Jul 22, 2003, 2:04 PM
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In reply to: Unless you are belaying a lead climber off the anchors, there is no such thing as a static belay.
People aren't literally talking about a completely "static" belay. The concern is that a Grigri catches "more statically" or "less dynamically" than other devices". An ATC or other tube style device will let a few inches of slack slide through the device before catching the fall. A Grigri allows virtually no slippage befroe camming. The result is a considerable increase in loading on the top piece of pro. The debate is whether or not this increase is enough to pull the trad gear. Of course, a good dynamic belay technique can alleviate the problem as others have pointed out.
The teeth on devices such as the Trango Jaws or ATC XP increase the braking power, but probably not as much as a Grigri. I haven't seen any type of comparison, but from personal observation the "modified" tube devices don't seem to lock as suddenly.
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jughead
Jul 22, 2003, 2:08 PM
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the problem with the gri gri is it takes the load instantly with no slippage (Its likened to crumple zones on cars) now when you lower off with any belay device the rope partially melts then hardens again in effect glazing the rope AND the belay mechanisms conventional belays also allow you to feel the rope more as it is not being transferred through a lot of mechanisms, the belayer can feel this extra slippage from the glaze through his atc, bug etc. (but NOT a gri gri) therefore he will know to lock off with more force to give more braking force to counter the slippage but the gri's braking force is constant and in time after a few lower offs you will have a lovely slippy gri gri if you have noticed this which is unlikely then when your partner falls the gri gri WONT lock of with full force in a small fall this might manage but if your partner takes a whipper it will bring new meaning to the word as you watch the rope whip through the gri gri as your mate plunges on to the rocks below is that the price you want to pay to be a dumbass and fall asleep while belaying? if you must use a gri gri only use it as an anchored back up to an atc. or ignore me and have a doze and wake up with your rope missing :shock:
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brutusofwyde
Jul 22, 2003, 2:59 PM
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In reply to: if you must use a gri gri only use it as an anchored back up to an atc. or ignore me and have a doze and wake up with your rope missing :shock:
The problem with run-on sentences is that no one can figure out what the heck you're trying to say.
Why would my rope be missing? don't you tie into the end of your rope when climbing multi-pitch? I sure do.
Grigri is neither more nor less safe than any other device in the hands of an experienced, competent belayer.
That being said, the grigri is useless for rappelling two strands, weighs far more than a tube style belay device, and costs far more as well.
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jt512
Jul 22, 2003, 3:39 PM
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In reply to: the problem with the gri gri is it takes the load instantly with no slippage (Its likened to crumple zones on cars) now when you lower off with any belay device the rope partially melts then hardens again in effect glazing the rope AND the belay mechanisms conventional belays also allow you to feel the rope more as it is not being transferred through a lot of mechanisms, the belayer can feel this extra slippage from the glaze through his atc, bug etc. (but NOT a gri gri) therefore he will know to lock off with more force to give more braking force to counter the slippage but the gri's braking force is constant and in time after a few lower offs you will have a lovely slippy gri gri if you have noticed this which is unlikely then when your partner falls the gri gri WONT lock of with full force in a small fall this might manage but if your partner takes a whipper it will bring new meaning to the word as you watch the rope whip through the gri gri as your mate plunges on to the rocks below is that the price you want to pay to be a dumbass and fall asleep while belaying? if you must use a gri gri only use it as an anchored back up to an atc. or ignore me and have a doze and wake up with your rope missing :shock:
This is an idiotic post.
-Jay
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tenn_dawg
Jul 22, 2003, 3:55 PM
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In reply to: the problem with the gri gri is it takes the load instantly with no slippage (Its likened to crumple zones on cars) now when you lower off with any belay device the rope partially melts then hardens again in effect glazing the rope AND the belay mechanisms conventional belays also allow you to feel the rope more as it is not being transferred through a lot of mechanisms, the belayer can feel this extra slippage from the glaze through his atc, bug etc. (but NOT a gri gri) therefore he will know to lock off with more force to give more braking force to counter the slippage but the gri's braking force is constant and in time after a few lower offs you will have a lovely slippy gri gri if you have noticed this which is unlikely then when your partner falls the gri gri WONT lock of with full force in a small fall this might manage but if your partner takes a whipper it will bring new meaning to the word as you watch the rope whip through the gri gri as your mate plunges on to the rocks below is that the price you want to pay to be a dumbass and fall asleep while belaying? if you must use a gri gri only use it as an anchored back up to an atc. or ignore me and have a doze and wake up with your rope missing :shock:
Jeez buddy. How about a period every now and then. I really want to understand what you are trying to say, but I can't make up from down in this post.
And does anyone know where any tests have been done to show the higher load on lead placements durring a fall while using a Gri Gri vs. using an ATC.
I get the feeling that this stigma is the result of a good bit of conjecture, rather than fact. I will bow to defeat if someone can show me some convincing experimental results, however.
Travis
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petsfed
Jul 22, 2003, 3:57 PM
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In reply to: That being said, the grigri is useless for rappelling two strands, weighs far more than a tube style belay device, and costs far more as well.
Not quite, but close. If you tie some sort of loop at the point the two ropes join (rather like PTPP's method for free hanging fixed lines) and clip this loop to the other strand it can be done. The downside is that you end up with a not that catches on everything, and if you rig it wrong, you die.
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traddad
Jul 22, 2003, 4:06 PM
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Thanks for the Reverso info. Maybe I’ll give it another try (and maybe next time I’ll read the instructions ;-) ). As for the great static vs dynamic belay conflagration, these are the things I want from a belay, in order of importance.
1. I want the rope to stop, first time, every time.
Well, honestly, I couldn’t think of anything else that even approached the importance of that one thing.
I climb with a lot of different people, a lot of them Newbies, Noobs, Gumbies, whatever and the ONLY belay device I trust them with is the Gri Gri. I was fiddling in a piece at the White Tanks a while back when I looked down to see my belayer, a PhD consultant, taking her brake hand off the rope to haul in some extra slack. Ouch. She knew better but in a moment of weakness made a mistake that could have killed me if she wasn’t using a Gri Gri (she bought the beer that night).
(side note, even if my partner is using a Gri Gri, I’ll KILL them if they take their brake hand off) The ONLY belay device failure I have ever personally witnessed happened with an ATC. An experienced climber (and a very strong fire fighter) was belaying a 200+ pound beefcake when he popped suddenly and unexpectedly while she was feeding slack for a clip. Her brake hand was very near the ATC and given the surprise etc., by the time she got her hand clamped, the rope whipped through, burning her hand almost to the bone. He sustained a blown knee and she ended up without the use of her right hand for a long while.
It’s easy to teach someone to belay a leader using a Gri Gri. It takes maybe five minutes of practice to get the feeding slack thing down. While I personally use an ATC, I like it when the smaller climbers I often climb with use a Gri Gri.
As for shock loading trad gear, If I’m on a trad climb where I’m worried about the strength of placements, I’ll have an experienced belayer in my corner, I’ll take EXTRA care to place my gear (as opposed to my cavalier, throw it into the crack and go attitude ;-) ) and use screamers and my nice, spongy, boingy, bungielike lead rope, which, incidentally, is DESIGNED to limit the shock of a fall.
There are places for Gri Gris. If you don’t like them, don’t use them.
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jt512
Jul 22, 2003, 4:08 PM
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In reply to: And does anyone know where any tests have been done to show the higher load on lead placements durring a fall while using a Gri Gri vs. using an ATC. I get the feeling that this stigma is the result of a good bit of conjecture, rather than fact. I will bow to defeat if someone can show me some convincing experimental results, however.
I don't know where any tests have been done, but I have seen specific numbers quoted in papers and books for the braking forces of ATCs and Grigris. I doubt that those numbers were just made up.
There is no question, though, that grigris have greater braking power than ATCs. ATCs allow rope to slip when the force exceeds approximately 500 lbf. That is a design feature to limit the impact force on anchors. In contrast, the grigri is designed not to allow rope to slip through, though it will, slightly, at a sufficiently high force. The numbers I've seen quoted vary from 900 to 1400 lbf, probably depending on the specifics of the experiment, such as the rope that was used.
-Jay
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jt512
Jul 22, 2003, 4:14 PM
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In reply to: I climb with a lot of different people, a lot of them Newbies, Noobs, Gumbies, whatever and the ONLY belay device I trust them with is the Gri Gri.
I see people saying that a lot. To those of you who say this I have a question. Grigris haven't been around for that long. What would you have done to insure your safety climbing with a newbie if Grigris hadn't been invented yet?
-Jay
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