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jt512
Aug 12, 2003, 3:04 AM
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texasclimber
Aug 12, 2003, 7:12 PM
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Thanks Jay, this will help a lot! BTW, why only canned tuna? Are tuna steaks not as good? The reason I ask is that I can't stand the smell of canned tuna, but love tuna steaks (when I can afford them).
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perozee
Aug 12, 2003, 7:24 PM
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Thanks!!!!!!! This will help take some of the guessing work out of the process. :D
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jt512
Aug 12, 2003, 8:15 PM
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In reply to: Thanks Jay, this will help a lot! BTW, why only canned tuna? Are tuna steaks not as good? The reason I ask is that I can't stand the smell of canned tuna, but love tuna steaks (when I can afford them). Canned tuna (packed in water is very low in fat). Fresh tuna may or may not be, depending on the variety of tuna. Presumably, fresh albacore would have a similar amount of fat as canned, but some varieties of fresh tuna have a lot more fat. The best source of nutrition information for packaged foods is the nutrition label on the package. For non-packaged foods, the searchable USDA Nutrient Database is the best source. -Jay
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organic
Aug 12, 2003, 8:53 PM
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I think that is probably one of the best answers I have ever read about weight loss. With all the diet fads these days and people thinking up complex answers to a simple problem. It seems with your vast knowledge you put it straight forward REDUCE CALORIC INTAKE! Of course thats what no one wants to hear because it takes effort but hey. Being a lifetime long skinny person I can't say much but I think I am skinny because I have stayed active all my life and limited my portions! great advice!!!
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gblauer
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Aug 12, 2003, 8:57 PM
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Interesting. My physician suggested that I follow a diet where I get 50% of my calories from fat (nuts, flaxseed oil etc), 30% protein and 20% carb. Not only have I lost excess poundage (not too much, I am 5'3" and weigh 108 pounds), I have put on lots of muscle and I am never ever hungry. The fat in my diet makes me feel full all the time; I often have to remind myself to eat. Typical day includes lots and lots of nuts (any kind) with lots and lots of veggies. (I am a vegan). No bread, no pasta, no rice etc. Do I occasionally "slip"? Sure I do, just last night I made chocolate chip cookies and indulged. Overall, I feel much better than when I followed a high carb, low fat diet. I guess everyone is different and you have to find what works for you.
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pinkamy
Aug 12, 2003, 10:01 PM
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Wow, thanks Jay that helps me too. One question, maybe I read this wrong, but why eat fruit in moderation? Too many carbs? Thanks! :)
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mreardon
Aug 12, 2003, 10:23 PM
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I would have just suggested two slurpees per day, but if you need to get all complicated, I suppose JT is correct.... :D
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daryl314
Aug 12, 2003, 10:25 PM
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In reply to: Keep a diary of everything you eat. Specifically note the total calories you consume and the total grams of protein in each meal. If, at the end of the day, you didn’t consume enough protein, have a blended shake made from a protein supplement and a piece of fruit in the evening. Buy the cheap soy-protein powder. Let the muscle heads waste their money on designer whey peptides. Is this to say that we should ignore the biological value of the protein? I've seen Trader Joe's brand whey protein for what seems like a pretty good price. Is it better to focus on things like eggs and whey if it isn't too expensive, or does it really matter?
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jt512
Aug 12, 2003, 11:19 PM
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In reply to: Interesting. My physician suggested that I follow a diet where I get 50% of my calories from fat (nuts, flaxseed oil etc), 30% protein and 20% carb. Not only have I lost excess poundage (not too much, I am 5'3" and weigh 108 pounds), I have put on lots of muscle and I am never ever hungry. The fat in my diet makes me feel full all the time; I often have to remind myself to eat. Typical day includes lots and lots of nuts (any kind) with lots and lots of veggies. (I am a vegan). No bread, no pasta, no rice etc. Do I occasionally "slip"? Sure I do, just last night I made chocolate chip cookies and indulged. Overall, I feel much better than when I followed a high carb, low fat diet. I guess everyone is different and you have to find what works for you. A diet so low in carbs is probably not the best choice for losing weight while attempting to maximize athletic performance. I would expect that most athletes' performance would decline with so little carbohydrate in the diet. -Jay
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jt512
Aug 12, 2003, 11:21 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: Keep a diary of everything you eat. Specifically note the total calories you consume and the total grams of protein in each meal. If, at the end of the day, you didn’t consume enough protein, have a blended shake made from a protein supplement and a piece of fruit in the evening. Buy the cheap soy-protein powder. Let the muscle heads waste their money on designer whey peptides. Is this to say that we should ignore the biological value of the protein? I've seen Trader Joe's brand whey protein for what seems like a pretty good price. Is it better to focus on things like eggs and whey if it isn't too expensive, or does it really matter? Soy protein is almost as efficiently utilized as whey protein, so, unless the difference in cost is minimal, I'd just go with the cheaper option, soy. -Jay
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jt512
Aug 12, 2003, 11:23 PM
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In reply to: Wow, thanks Jay that helps me too. One question, maybe I read this wrong, but why eat fruit in moderation? Too many carbs? Thanks! :) Fruit has very little protein, so if you consume a lot of fruit on this diet, you'll have trouble getting enough protein. -Jay
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bouldini
Aug 12, 2003, 11:32 PM
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Cheers for the good info, I can really make some good use of this :D
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hasbeen
Aug 12, 2003, 11:39 PM
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Nice little thread here. Many important points, including how inadequate a low-carb diet is for sports performance. There is one potential problem here that I see (I'm in this business too), and that is to pay attention to Jay's definition of low-fat. He said 10-20%. Never go under that, especially when trying to perform on a daily basis. In my experience, I've not seen one instance of chronic fatigue syndrome except in cases where essential fatty acids were severly limited in diets. It's pretty serious. I used to all chronic fatigue "athlete's disease" because of the large number of climbers, triathletes, and other "extreme" athletes in weight-dependant sports that came down with it. Remember to eat fat, especially omega 3's, 6, & 9's. Flax or hemp seeds should always be added to any low-fat diet, or at least the oils of these seeds (less fiber but still very good). Also, whey protein has a better protein profile for muscle resynthesis, while soy has a better profile for muscular endurance. I recommend whey protein when working a lot in the power/power-endurance realm, or spending most of your workouts in the anaerobic pathways. Soy is better for long days out. These differences are somewhat small in the grand scheme of things but as an athleter, small advantages are what you're after.
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crackaddict
Aug 13, 2003, 12:13 AM
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Thank you also Jay! I was thinking sending you the same PM with almost the same question. I guess someone beat me to it. Thank you for taking the time to post this good information. Its nice to hear this from someone how knows what they are talking about. Chris...
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shinynewwidget
Aug 13, 2003, 5:26 PM
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Chain smoking is also a good way to keep your weight down for sport climbing, as long as you go to crags with short approaches.
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leaverbiner
Aug 13, 2003, 6:11 PM
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Jay - I respect what you have said here, and appreciate it, but I wouldn't be too brutal on Atkins (low carb). Now I realize that you probably didn't want to go through telling people that low carb is just not right for most athletic people nor try to make some sort of disclaimer or checklist for people to see if maybe it would work for them, but I hope you don't believe that it is simply a farce. If you do, I've got a case study for you. Example: Female Climber - training in the gym twice a week and spending most weekends climbing. Bouldering v3's consistently, leading 10's on sport with ease, doing 11's clean on TR. Former college athlete. Doing cardio (atleast twice usually more) and opposing muscle group lifting twice a week. Absolutely unable to lose the weight she wanted to lose to improve her climbing and self-esteem . . . gets on Atkins and strictly follows induction for 2 weeks then continues on the "continued weightloss" program for another 4 to 6 weeks. In the first 2 weeks, while maintianing her fitness schedule discribed above, dramatically loses weight and gets incredibly toned . . . progress slows but continues for next 4 to 6 weeks. In this time the climber at issue not only redpointed her first 11, she redpointed 11d, onsighted 11a, and sent at least a dozen 11's. Also on her first trip back to the gunks since doing Atkins, she ticked off not only her first, but 3 Gunks v4's (she had done 4's and 5's at the Happy's but never at the gunks). My point being, that Atkins clearly has had dramatic results for her . .. both losing weight she could not lose before, adding confidence (I think that is all that it took to send the routes) and clearly not diminishing her power (bouldering stronger than ever) nor her endurance (leading long sustained routes.) I know there are problems with Atkins, particularly for athletic people . . . but it apparently can work. Thoughts?
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maculated
Aug 13, 2003, 6:21 PM
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Atkins, I sound a lot like your case study, but here's my thoughts: my doctor said I should hit the Atkins diet thing up last time I saw him, so I did. Went out and bought all kinds of meat, etc. In addition to the ketosis that occurs, if you do this diet right, you are on an extremely low caloric intake. Four days into it, I'd dropped something like 3 lbs and was totally fatigued, ill, etc. Couldn't do a thing. I went off of it. I would have kept on it if I didn't also know that the Atkins diet is a diet for life. The induction totally helps you lose weight, but the minute you go back to normal eating patterns, you're screwed. I think the Atkins diet is awesome for teaching people what food is good and bad, but for someone like me who opts for whole grain foods, lots of protein, organic veggies, and the like, it did nothing except make me ill. And yes, I gained the weight back. Partly because I was so tired of the meat thing and being ill I enjoyed eating for once, but partly because fad dieting will do that. I'm still trying to get back down to my normal weight. Fie to the Atkins diet!
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dingus
Aug 13, 2003, 6:23 PM
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If you want to keep it simple and not be monitoring your daily this or that (who but chronic dieters and paid atheletes and their advisors has TIME for THAT?)... avoid refined sugar in all its insidious forms. I wouldn't presume to argue the benefits or downsides to any particular diet regime. I would opine that most of us cannot sustain any diet recipe long term if it deviates too far from what we enjoy. And it isn't a "diet" if it isn't long term. Losing weight is simple... burn more than you eat. If you're an active person who keeps the furnace turned up high a lot of the time, I believe you can eat virtually anything and remain healthy. But when you let the engine idle too long and keep pumping in high-test in the form of rocket-fuel-refined sugars, you are going to clog your arteries and store the excess... It really is a simple formula. That's why so many American's are obese. DMT
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danyelle
Aug 13, 2003, 6:35 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: Wow, thanks Jay that helps me too. One question, maybe I read this wrong, but why eat fruit in moderation? Too many carbs? Thanks! :) Fruit has very little protein, so if you consume a lot of fruit on this diet, you'll have trouble getting enough protein. -Jay Doe this mean that too much fruit would be bad? I tend to love my fruit but not big on vegtables. I can manage to increase my proteins at the same time but for me fruits are a way to keep my hands out of the cookies jar and out of the candy aisle. I do eat sweets but I will consume much less if I can have a healthy (large) bowl of fresh cut fruit each day. Thanks so much for posting this information. I have been struggling with this topic for some time now. I have noticed this season I'm less fit because I haven't been able to excercise and yet my diet hasn't seemed to change much but I'm sure I'll benefit greatly when I do get back on the rock by this recipe. In the past I tended to loose energy quite quickly and I never did figure out why. Now I know! I always thought less carbs was the answer since I was overweight but I realize it's more protein that I was lacking! -d
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jt512
Aug 13, 2003, 6:43 PM
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In reply to: ...I wouldn't be too brutal on Atkins (low carb).... I've got a case study for you. Female Climber - training in the gym twice a week and spending most weekends climbing. Bouldering v3's consistently, leading 10's on sport with ease, doing 11's clean on TR. Former college athlete. Doing cardio (atleast twice usually more) and opposing muscle group lifting twice a week. Absolutely unable to lose the weight she wanted to lose to improve her climbing and self-esteem . . . gets on Atkins and strictly follows induction for 2 weeks then continues on the "continued weightloss" program for another 4 to 6 weeks. In the first 2 weeks, while maintianing her fitness schedule discribed above, dramatically loses weight and gets incredibly toned . . . progress slows but continues for next 4 to 6 weeks. In this time the climber at issue not only redpointed her first 11, she redpointed 11d, onsighted 11a, and sent at least a dozen 11's... And I have a case study for you ... Female Climber. Dramatic loss of weight on Atkins over several months, though climbing performance deteriorates while on diet. 1 year after beginning Atkins her weight is greater than before beginning the diet. So much for case studies. Numerous controlled research studies have shown that extreme diets do not work in the long run. You can lose weight in the short-term on Atkins. The question is can you keep it off? I've yet to see anyone who has. Atkins is no different than any other extreme diet. Research has shown that nearly 100% of those who successfully lose weight on such diets gain all the weight back within two years. The only way to lose weight permanently is by modest caloric restriction and increased physical activity followed by dietary vigilance after your target weight is reached. -Jay
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hkclimb
Aug 13, 2003, 6:46 PM
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I am kind of confused about 'caloric deficit'. I read from a few sources about that: some say that the quality is important (e.g. low fat, high carb), some claim that quantity is all that matters (e.g. 1500 is 1500 - doesn't matter where they come from. My question will be: if I am trying to lose fat (not just weight) - will maintaining a fixed calories intake be ok... or I need to consider fat-carb-protein ratio too?
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jt512
Aug 13, 2003, 6:52 PM
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In reply to: Doe this mean that too much fruit would be bad? I tend to love my fruit but not big on vegtables. I can manage to increase my proteins at the same time but for me fruits are a way to keep my hands out of the cookies jar and out of the candy aisle. If you eat a lot of fruit, you will almost certainly have to use a protein supplement to attain the protein intake levels I recommend. From the broader nutritional standpoint, fruit is good for you, but it doesn't take the place of vegetables, which contain different micronutrients and beneficial phytochemicals. Try and choke down a few veggies each day.
In reply to: I always thought less carbs was the answer since I was overweight but I realize it's more protein that I was lacking! Weight loss in general is accomplished by consuming fewer calories than you burn. It doesn't matter whether you reduce your intake of carbs, protein, or fat. If you consume fewer calories than you burn, you'll lose weight. For an athlete, however, it is important to maintain (or increase) muscle mass while losing weight. This is best accomplished in the manner I described; namely, reducing fat intake, increasing protein intake, and maintaining a fairly high level of carbohydrate intake. -Jay
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artm
Aug 13, 2003, 6:53 PM
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Huh when I asked Jay this question (in person no less) he told me "quit drinking so much beer". I like his new response much better and plan on following it.
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jt512
Aug 13, 2003, 6:53 PM
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In reply to: I am kind of confused about 'caloric deficit'. I read from a few sources about that: some say that the quality is important (e.g. low fat, high carb), some claim that quantity is all that matters (e.g. 1500 is 1500 - doesn't matter where they come from. My question will be: if I am trying to lose fat (not just weight) - will maintaining a fixed calories intake be ok... or I need to consider fat-carb-protein ratio too? This is precisely what my original post is about. Please reread it. It answers all your questions. -Jay
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