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adeptus
Aug 17, 2003, 6:15 PM
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The way I think of an onsight is to do a climb with no other information than what is in the guide book. Free climbing the route without a fall.
But wouldn't a true onsight require that you don't know anything about the route including the grade? Knowing that it's within your limit removes some of the uncertainty of doing an unknown route.
Also do you think top roping a climb qualifies as having done the climb or should you lead it to have done it?
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alpnclmbr1
Aug 17, 2003, 7:25 PM
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In reply to: But wouldn't a true onsight require that you don't know anything about the route including the grade? Knowing that it's within your limit removes some of the uncertainty of doing an unknown route.
In reply to: Also do you think top roping a climb qualifies as having done the climb or should you lead it to have done it?
If it is a top rope only, then you have "done it", if it is leadable then you have "done it on top rope."
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dbrayack
Aug 17, 2003, 7:28 PM
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We'll usually say RP on TR (red point on TR), or Flash on TR to distinguish between TR and leading.
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fredbob
Aug 17, 2003, 7:52 PM
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In reply to: We'll usually say RP on TR (red point on TR), or Flash on TR to distinguish between TR and leading.
Red Pointing involves leading and placing all the draws on the lead; so I am pretty confused how you can "red point" on top-rope. Top roping and leading are two different things, and with sport routes, doing it on TR isn't really "doing it" is it?
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monkeyarm
Aug 17, 2003, 8:05 PM
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Fredbob what about routes that cannot be done on lead, only on top rope or by a free solo, would the only people who have really done the route be the handful of people who have climbed it without tope?
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alpnclmbr1
Aug 17, 2003, 8:53 PM
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I don't know why people bag on top ropes. A lot of the boldest climbers I know stick with the concept of the "proud top rope." In lieu of bolting everything in sight.
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fredbob
Aug 18, 2003, 12:49 AM
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In reply to: Fredbob what about routes that cannot be done on lead, only on top rope or by a free solo, would the only people who have really done the route be the handful of people who have climbed it without tope?
I wasn't talking about routes that are just top ropes; but about top roping a route and calling it a "red point" which is a term of art meaning leading a sport route and placing all the draws on the lead. Should a "real" top rope "red point" be cleaning all the draws on top rope to be counted? My point was that this is pretty absurd stuff.
Also, if you hang/fall of a TR, you really didn't climb it free did you? So climbing a TR without falling just means you actually climbed it doesn't it? So why the meaningless "red point" term?
In reply to: I don't know why people bag on top ropes. A lot of the boldest climbers I know stick with the concept of the "proud top rope." In lieu of bolting everything in sight.
Dan, no one is/was bagging on top ropes (or least not me). I top rope stuff all the time, but I also realize it is very different (usually much easier) from leading. I also support keeping some traditional top rope routes just that, top ropes and not necessarily bolting the life out of them.
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alpnclmbr1
Aug 18, 2003, 1:55 AM
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Randy,
I would like to apologize for my misinterpretation of your post. I misread it and jumped to conclusions due to a complaint I have often had about this site. It happens most of the time I see the words top rope around here, agreed that top roping a sport climb is not doing it.
Dan
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rrrADAM
Aug 18, 2003, 2:18 AM
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Onsire equals walk up and do the climb clean, with the beta that you can get yourself looking at the book, and at the climb from the ground.
You only get one chance at an Onsight, but an infinite number of Redpoint attempts. :wink:
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granitegod
Aug 18, 2003, 3:34 AM
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Who cares......climb something any way you want to.....then go climb sumthin else. Don't waste time spraying about what you did.....
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koto
Aug 18, 2003, 3:55 AM
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An interesting topic. I have another question, I've heard people say that they have onsighted a climb in a gym, but does this really qualify as an onsight as you can see all the holds marked out and the specific sequence? Flash certainly, but onsight?
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muncher
Aug 18, 2003, 4:11 AM
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While it is easier for the reason pointed out above i guess you would still call it an onsight, after all they do have onsight climbing competitions. That said I really don't think anyone cares what the f@#$ someone climbs in the gym. The same rules still apply but whether or not you onsighted, flashed or redpointed a route in a gym doesn't doesn't change the fact that it is still some insignificant contrived piece of plastic that is in no way worthy of spraying about.
Some horribly contrived, chipped sport route outside though, that is definetly worth spraying about.
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alpnclmbr1
Aug 18, 2003, 4:12 AM
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I don't see how that is any different then having chalk on the route.
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muncher
Aug 18, 2003, 4:20 AM
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Sure chalk marks make it easier but I have been on quite a few climbs where there were that many holds chalked up it was very difficult to pick out the best ones to use or that by just blindly following the chalk you ended up at a dead end like all the other clowns before you. Also, the black marks showing where to place your feet are a little less obvious than the line of green holds in the gym.
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ikefromla
Aug 18, 2003, 4:40 AM
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muncher.. i compete in the USCCA... the format for all championship comps (as well as most major comps... world cup, etc) is "Onsight Format." that is, we all hang out in isolation until we are called out to climb, look at the route, and then climb it... or at least as high as we get. oh yeah, and WHO CARES?
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muncher
Aug 18, 2003, 5:04 AM
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Do they still have redpoint comps in Europe? I remember reading about some a while back but am not sure if they still have them.
Anyway, good luck with the comps ike.
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ptone
Aug 18, 2003, 5:33 AM
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oops
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metoliusmunchkin
Aug 18, 2003, 5:58 AM
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I have always perceived the term "onsight" to be successfully ascending a route first try, that is to say without falling, and without previously seeing the climb in person.
In my mind, there is still one obscurity: Must a climb be free'd in order for an ascent to be considered an "onsight"? Or, can an ascent be considered an "onsight" even if top-roped?
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adeptus
Aug 18, 2003, 7:38 AM
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I was actually more interested in hearing your opinions about the challenge of climbing without knowing the grade of a climb. If you know that you have done similar climbs, it will make you believe that you can do this one too. If don't know the grade, you will climb with a different mental approach to the problems ahead. You will be climbing with the same attitude as if it was the first ascent.
So maybe there is a style which is even better than onsight.
Right on (or whatever) - Not knowing the line or grade of a climb
Onsight - First try, guide book info and what you see from the ground
Flash - Beta form other climbers and rappel inspection
Red point - Trying the route until you do can free climb it in one go
Top rope - Not an actual ascent merely a way of training for it
Climbing is a sport where style IS of importance, whether you like it or not.
The stile of an ascent should be of importance to you, but not because you can tell others, but because it satisfies you to have done it in that way. If you're satisfied with a top rope then good for you.
I came to think of the "Right on" style, because I did a climb a few days ago where I didn't know anything about the route. I didn't know if there actually was a route or if it could be protected. This was actually a first ascent, but it might as well have been any route climbed in the "Right On" style.
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ajkclay
Aug 18, 2003, 12:59 PM
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Adam of the rrr variety (as distinct from me) got it in one with the onsight definition.
Seth, I know what you're saying, if you study a route in the gym before attempting it then it's got to be a flash. But, what about this one, and this is where honesty comes into it - most of the time when I climb a new route in the gym, I don't look at the route, I just start it, then work it out as I go, so, do you think I should call it an onsight, as I have been guilty of doing, or still a flash? Bear in mind that we are talking about the gym, so I'm not talking about claiming some huge feat when I think to myself that I have done a route onsight, just that I at least have some sort of guide to personal progress... thoughts?
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koto
Aug 18, 2003, 1:59 PM
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In reply to: do you think I should call it an onsight, as I have been guilty of doing
lol! I was actually thinking of a post of yours when I posed the qu! Something you said about being able to onsight 22 in the gym. (BTW, I went to VR for the first time in months and "onsighted" (haha) that black 23 on the overhung wall in the corner - but enough of my useless lamearese spary (should put it in the other thread!)).
In reply to: Bear in mind that we are talking about the gym, so I'm not talking about claiming some huge feat when I think to myself that I have done a route onsight
Very true, I've gotta say I kind of despise the gym these days. it has it's merits for training and so on, but I will avoid it if I can.
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ajkclay
Aug 18, 2003, 2:16 PM
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yes, I tried that "23" last thursday, and let me say that it was the easiest 23 I've ever done.
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overlord
Aug 18, 2003, 3:28 PM
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ok, here goes:
IMHO onsight is when:
1. only info you have about the route is the picture in the guide with a line drawn across the rock, showing you the general direction of the route.
2. you have NO prior beta about the holds or anything else about the route.
3. you inspect the route from the bottom, that includes looking for anchors (if someone tells you "theyre hidden above that shelf, its no longer an onsight)
4. you lead the route without falling or using pro for rest or downclimbing to the ground to rest and on the first try. you are allowed to rest using anything the route provides, lige big shelves, big holds...
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skinny
Aug 18, 2003, 4:27 PM
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I think the main issue here is how the knowledge of a climb's grade applies to your climbing. I just tried a climb this weekend that, by knowing the grade, made it harder. The route was graded a little stiff and had a very bouldery crux. I was in the middle of a sequence but it felt "too hard" for the grade so I tried a different sequence, and fell. The next go I used the original sequence and it was the correct way after all. If I had just stuck with my intial sequence I may have done it on first try. But knowing the grade made me think too much and so I fell.
As far as whether knowing the grade of a route will make it a true onsight: these rules we put on ourselves are all artificial. If you want to make things "harder" for yourself then go trad climb naked on an undeveloped cliff with no chalk. But the general consensus of onsight is just doing a route first try with no beta. If you want to make other rules up for yourself then you go right ahead.
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akd
Aug 18, 2003, 4:53 PM
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In reply to: Historical note: Comes from France--when someone was working on a new route, they'd draw a red circle on it, like we tie a bit of web to the first bolt, to show it was a work in progress. When they finished and sent it, they'd fill in the circle, a red point, and open the climb
No, the term comes from Germany (the Franken), and more precisely, from Kurt Albert (FA of routes such as Magnet, in the Frankenjura; to Eternal Flame, in The Nameless Tower; Riders on the Storm in Paine Towers; Royal Flush in the Fitz Roy; etc....)
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