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darin
Aug 21, 2003, 6:44 PM
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I'm looking to improve my cardio on non-climbing days by running.. I'm wondering if anyone has any opinions on what would yield better results for climbing, since I'm not too terribly concerned with becoming a fanatic runner or anything...
my main goal is to drop about 10-12 pounds.. I'm 5'10" and probably 155 or so, but not very muscular so it's pretty much all gut :)
should I try the 5k route, or would I be better off doing some shorter sprint reps (2x100m, 2x200m, 2x300m, 2x400m, 2x300m, 2x200m, 2x100m).. I'm thinking the shorter sprints should give me the necessary endurance training as well as some power help as long as I can sustain a pretty aggressive pace..
any tips/suggestions are welcome...
darin
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t-dog
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Aug 21, 2003, 6:46 PM
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I would say 5k and 10k to start off with. Long distance running should get rid of your gut faster and work your abs a lot.
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slcliffdiver
Aug 21, 2003, 7:14 PM
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I used to rock hop run. Basically I'd go to a place with boulders and rocks and run on them and when I came to more of a dirt trail I'd still try and hop/run from feature to feature pick individual stones etc. so each step was precisely chosen. I think it improved my balance and foot eye coordination (both good for climbing). It also kept me from being bored out of my skull. Obviously you have to be careful so you don't sprain or break an ankle but it's something I found fun and as far as I could tell somewhat helpful to climbing.
Don't know that much about what'll be best in general. But in general you spend energy climbing a pitch and resting at belays so I think it might be helpful to mention this to someone who knows about sports conditioning to figure out what suites best for overall conditioning for climbing. Mountainering seems more like a long term endurance thing.
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toonarmy
Aug 21, 2003, 7:18 PM
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Forget about distance. Train at intensity levels. Your body makes different physiological changes depending at different intensity levels, with some of the greatest occuring at low intensity.
Get a heart rate monitor and run at approximately 60% to 70% of your max. heart rate for between 60 and 90 minutes (30 to 40 minutes out and then turn around). It may seem slow and easy, but long time at that intensity level will make up for it in the end. As time goes by, you may notice that you're covering further distances in the same amount of time.
Until you've developed a solid base fitness for running, training almost exclusively at this low intensity level. You can then add different workouts (intervals, speed work, endurance runs, etc.) at higher intensity levels. But still keep the majority of your training at the low intensity.
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snapier
Aug 21, 2003, 7:46 PM
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In reply to: Forget about distance. Train at intensity levels. Your body makes different physiological changes depending at different intensity levels, with some of the greatest occuring at low intensity. Get a heart rate monitor and run at approximately 60% to 70% of your max. heart rate for between 60 and 90 minutes (30 to 40 minutes out and then turn around). It may seem slow and easy, but long time at that intensity level will make up for it in the end. As time goes by, you may notice that you're covering further distances in the same amount of time. Until you've developed a solid base fitness for running, training almost exclusively at this low intensity level. You can then add different workouts (intervals, speed work, endurance runs, etc.) at higher intensity levels. But still keep the majority of your training at the low intensity.
I was a long distance runner throughout high school and college and I wholeheartedly agree with toonarmy, espeically with the heart rate monitoring. I used to take a month off during the summer between years and getting back into shape I tried to keep my heart rate at 75% max (which is 220 - your age a good estimate). But, I would say start out easy like maybe only 20 mins total and then build up to longer runs over the course of a few weeks or months.
The key especially if you want to lose weight, is consistency. Just get out every day.
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hangerlessbolt
Aug 21, 2003, 7:50 PM
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Cheers to both of these guys.
Also do a search for HIIT training. High Intensity Interval Training. I would go into it…but you’ll learn more through your searches.
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lazide
Aug 21, 2003, 8:23 PM
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First of all - START OFF EASY. Going to far too fast is a recipe for shin splints, knee problems, etc. You need to start off at a steady pace and slowly increase the distance.
Get a good pair of running shoes that fit you right. Go to a running store (NOT MC sports or sports authority, etc), and talk to a salesman to find a good fitting pair. A bad pair of shoes will ruin your knees/feet, etc and make you hate running.
Make sure to get enough sleep, and give yourself a chance to rest/recover - running 6-7 days a week at any intensity is a recipe for injury for all but the most hardy people. 4 days a week is usually better for most, but I would try to keep it at least 3 days a week. Pay attention to your body - if you feel sick, your joints hurt/feel really weird, etc don't go running 20 miles, ok. ;)
Also, if possible avoid running on concrete or asphalt - they dramatically increase the shock and the chances of injury.
Have fun!
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hombre_x
Aug 21, 2003, 8:31 PM
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Hey,
I'm going to toss two things in your direction:
For cardio, running is probably good; I don't know an extreme amount about it, but judging by the way I pant like I'm going to die afterwards, it probably does some work on your lungs. :~)
As far as losing weight goes, walking is actually better. This may sound odd, but a friend of mine in pre-med pointed this out to me. When you're running, you're burning glycogen (sugar) stores in your body. In order to burn any fat, you'd have to use up all of the glycogen stored in your body first. As far as I can tell, that's more running than you probably want to do.
Just my two cents; take care and good luck with the training.
Luke
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solid
Aug 21, 2003, 8:40 PM
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hombre - untrue.
and sprint training at high intensity is the best way to lose weight. do some ladders going 100m 200m 400m 800m 400m 200m 100m followed by an 800 cool down jog.
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hombre_x
Aug 21, 2003, 8:53 PM
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In reply to: hombre - untrue.
Hey,
I'm just wondering what contradictory proof you have to this? I'm not going to argue, as I'm no expert, but I'm just curious on your statement.
Another thing I have heard is that runner can sometimes develop a "gut," as they may relax their stomach muscles while running. Anyone else heard anything to this effect? Take care.
Luke
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photon
Aug 21, 2003, 9:02 PM
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well good running (that is running that is good for you) is only accomplished when you are running scared. Now what you need to
do is find out whether you run better when being chased by
man,machine,natural disaster or beast.
Outrunning machines rarely gives good results for the human that is
and natural disasters are also too fast-especially for neophytes-
therefore we've broken it down to
run from man (from THE man usually works better)
run from beast.
Start slow-- slap a fat lady on the sidewalk the next time you have your
running shoes on --take off on your warm-up
after you settle into your pace take a detour into the hood and
put on that special running cap you made you know the one --
whit hood with 2 eye holes-- that should really get the blood pumping
now get out that bacon grease and lather it on good and you should
be on your way to some wholesome mileage
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robmcc
Aug 21, 2003, 9:36 PM
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In reply to: I'm just wondering what contradictory proof you have to this? I'm not going to argue, as I'm no expert, but I'm just curious on your statement.
I'm not an expert either, but he's right and your pre-med friend was talking out the wrong orifice. :) You may want to go try to find something to substantiate the claim that running burns glycogen (it does) but walking doesn't (it does, too). They both serve to increase the number of calories you burn in a day. Eat less than you burn and you're going to lose weight. Your body will make up the calorie deficit by metabolizing stored fat.
Anecdotally, I've been running 10-15 miles a week for the last 6 months or so and I'm down 25 pounds. I don't walk any more than I used to. I haven't changed my diet at all. In fact, I'm munching a bag of Cheetos right now.
In reply to: Another thing I have heard is that runner can sometimes develop a "gut," as they may relax their stomach muscles while running. Anyone else heard anything to this effect?
Nope.
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jt512
Aug 21, 2003, 9:44 PM
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In reply to: As far as losing weight goes, walking is actually better.
That is an unfortunate myth. Vigorous exercise will promote weight loss more effectively than walking.
In reply to: In order to burn any fat, you'd have to use up all of the glycogen stored in your body first.
That is absolutely wrong.
-Jay
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climbs2much
Aug 21, 2003, 9:46 PM
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Hombre,
I think what your buddy is refering to is the differences between metobolic cycles your body uses. Any one who has done a lot of long distance running can tell you about bonking. "Bonking" is when you have exersized for long enough to burn all of the glycogen availible in your blood stream. Once this happens you body switches over to burning fat which is very inefficent. When you bonk you can no longer opperate at high output and when you couple it with dehydration and fatigue you end up just shutting down. Running and exercise ingeneral helps you lose weight because it raises your metobolic rate helping you consume more calories all the time.
J
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jt512
Aug 21, 2003, 9:54 PM
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In reply to: Hombre, I think what your buddy is refering to is the differences between metobolic cycles your body uses. Any one who has done a lot of long distance running can tell you about bonking. "Bonking" is when you have exersized for long enough to burn all of the glycogen availible in your blood stream. Once this happens you body switches over to burning fat which is very inefficent.
Again, this is wrong. Your muscles burn fat during any exercise, including so called anaerobic exercise.
-Jay
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hombre_x
Aug 21, 2003, 10:01 PM
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Hey,
No arguments from me; just repeating what I heard. I'm not going to say running is bad in any way shape or form; it's obviously going to do more for you than walking overall (i.e. exercising heart, lungs). However, I will toss out that not many people who are climbers are going to say, "Yeah, I've taken up walking a certain distance every day and it's had benefit X," as I don't think many of them would pursue it as a fitness option. I find climbers tend to do more intensive workouts to achieve their goals. On the flipside, I managed to lose about 25 pounds in the span of 5-6 months by changing my eating habits. And no, I didn't walk any further. But I wasn't running, either. Just a different way of achieving the same goal.
I guess the point I SHOULD have originally made was that there are different means to the same end that might benefit you more depending on what you're going for. Darin, if you're looking to both lose weight and improve your climbing, I'd suggest weight training a little. When you first start out, you're going to end up burning off body fat and not gaining much muscle mass (thus achieving your main goal of taking off 10-12 pounds). Being that much lighter will more than likely help your climbing, and if you work your arms, it will tone them, again benefitting your climbing. So, you might be able to get a bit more benefit in the areas you're looking for. Just my two cents; take 'em for what they're worth.
Luke
P.S. Jay and climbs2much, thanks for the correction; I'll gladly stand corrected when someone backs themselves up with fact.
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sketchy
Aug 21, 2003, 10:10 PM
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To clear allot of this stuff up, I'd highly recommend "Optimum Sports Nutrition" by Dr. Michael Colgan. It's second to none when it comes to dealing with exercise and nutrition on atheletes - not the typical studies on couch potatoes. But anyway, from personal experience, my two cents on the subject are:
Don't run more than every other day. Otherwise, you'll be nursing shin splints, etc. for the rest of your life. Get on a trail (fairly smooth though, and be careful!). The action your secondary muscles will get from this will be amazing, and you will be less prone to repetitive strain injuries. Oh, and as far as that walking comment, the proof is in the pudding. I don't see many fat people running, but I sure see allot of 'em walking.
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addiroids
Aug 21, 2003, 11:16 PM
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Okay, there are a ton of falsities here. I really want to take the time to clear some stuff up for everyone. This may turn into a Pass the Glycogen Paul style post, but it's all helpful info, so please read it all. Let me start by stating my qualifications:
-B.S. in Exercise Science from the Univ of Nebraska
-Personal Trainer at Bally Total Fitness for 1.5 years
-8 months of medical school at Loma Linda (that sucked!)
-Just sat for the Certified Strength and Conditioning Specialist exam (the most respected cert - scores not back yet)
-Avid TRAD climber who is training hard for walls and long climb and has been burning through climbing partners due to the fact that I train myself really hard and smart and can go all day.
First off, congrats to the guys who lost 25 pounds. Keep up the good work!
Okay, let me address the original poster and hopefully dispell some myths (that I know Jay knows the answers to but obviously didn't want to take the time to work on). Remember to warm up by doing some light to moderate jogging prior to doing these workouts.
Darin, you are 155 lbs at 5'10"?? This would be about the lightest you would want to be. I would strongly suggest some full body weight training in order to have some muscle for climbing. That wasn't your question but I would rec it to be included in this running program.
Time for some education on the different energy systems used by the body. All of these are active all the time, however they work in different ratios based on the intensity of the exercise. Also, they are trained accordingly based on the intensity of the training and secondarily by exercise duration (Essentials of Strength Training and Conditioning, Beachle and Earle, p. 83). No one system is solely responsible for the complete supply of energy at one time during exercise or rest.
First is the ATP-CP or the Phosphagen system. This system uses Creatine Phosphate to replenish the Phosphate lost when ATP is used and becomes ADP. This system is the primary system used in the first 0-10 seconds of ANY activity (from getting off the couch to doing power cleans to bouldering). It can produce ATP the fastest (highest rate), but cannot produce much ATP total (low capacity). It is trained from doing very high intensity (90-100% of max power) work (Super High Intensity Training - I just like the acronym) like sprinting uphill with a work:rest interval of 1:12 to 1:20 (10 seconds of sprinting followed by 200 seconds of rest). This will help you when you are trying to fire through a crux after a rest or on the approach keeping the momentum up while jumping up a few steep blocks.
Second is the Glycolysis system. This provides ATP by taking glycogen (stored in liver and muscles) through many steps to provide ATP. One part of this (fast part) the glycogen only goes to lactate and the second part (slow part) puts pyruvate into the mitochondria for use in the Kreb's cycle. Let's refer to them as one for this. The glycogen system is the primary system used in intermediate work (30 sec to 2 minutes) at intensities of 30-90% of max power and the reason for fatigue is the decrease of blood pH due to lactate accumulation. As you train this system, the body becomes more efficient at taking the lactate through the Kreb's cycle and keeping the pH at the optimum range. This system can produce ATP at a medium rate and medium capacity. The work:rest interval for training this system is 1:3 to 1:5. This is a major part of climbing and is one of the best for increasing your VO2max (cardio fitness level).
Third is the Oxidative system of fats and carbohydrates. This system takes free fatty acids and glucose all the way through the Kreb's cycle yielding the most ATP per molecule of glucose or triglyceride (greatest capacity and least rate of ATP production). This is why marathon runners can run all day because they have become efficient at using free fatty acids and muscle/liver glycogen (muscle/liver glycogen stored is the limiting factor in marathon runs - "hitting the wall"). Anyways, this system is responsible for intensities of 20-35% max power lasting more than 3 minutes. Work:rest of 1:1 to 1:3 intervals.
So you may think 2 things:
1) If I want to lose fat, and since the ox system uses free fatty acids (FFA) then train that system solely,
and
2) Climbing is an aerobic (oxidation) sport therefore train the ox system.
Wrong on both. When you use the FFA's you are using what is already in the blood stream. The body continually replenishes this from your fat stores, but it is slow and goes on for 24 hours. Second, climbing is an ATP - Glycolysis sport requiring great power (think of it as fast strength) production. Therefore you have to train these energy systems.
An important thing is when you train for marathons (long slow runs - 5-10K) you will actually become weaker (less power) because the adaptations of the slow twitch muscles are to become smaller (more O2 saturation around the fiber due to smaller volume:surface area). When interval training (your pyramid is nice - be wary of work:rest intervals) is used, you become stronger and are able to keep your strength gains from the weight room.
Basically, I would say follow the above guidelines, don't worry about losing fat (it will happen) but more about increasing strength and cardiopulmonary fitness. Eat 5-6 small balanced meals throughout the day. Buy a sport training book (I really love Essentials of Strength Training and Conditioning by T. Baechle and R. Earle from the NSCA (www.nsca.com). I want to finish with a quote from the book:
"Although oxidative metabolism is important in recovery from heavy anaerobic exercise, care must be used in prescribing aerobic training for anaerobic sports. In this context it should be noted that specific anaerobic training can stimulate increases in aerobic power and enhance markers of recovery. Thus, extensive aerobic training to enhance recovery from anaerobic events is not necessary and may be counterproductive in most strength and power sports."
I hope this helped. It seemed important to discuss the technical stuff because of the many myths posted (which I will dispel next post).
TRADitionally yours,
Cali Dirtbag
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solid
Aug 21, 2003, 11:18 PM
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In reply to: Don't run more than every other day. Otherwise, you'll be nursing shin splints, etc. for the rest of your life.
In reply to: Get on a trail (fairly smooth though, and be careful!). The action your secondary muscles will get from this will be amazing, and you will be less prone to repetitive strain injuries. Oh, and as far as that walking comment, the proof is in the pudding. I don't see many fat people running, but I sure see allot of 'em walking.
Word to the trail running...to a point. If you really want strong secondary muscles do your runs on a beach.
And as far as the glycogen stores go....you will ideally always have glycogen in your (liver? i think). Keeps your from getting hungry and binging if you keep your glycogen levels up and also aids in burning more calories. ...that's probably entirely wrong but it seems to go hand in hand with the 5-6 meals a day plan.
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muncher
Aug 22, 2003, 12:35 AM
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Go swimming isntead, its impact on joints etc is way less than running and it is very specific to climbing fitness, as climbing and swimming are practically the same anyway.
When running, don't bother with too many all out sprints, you don't want to biuld up big powerful leg muscles that you are going to have to lug up a wall but if you are into alpine then that is another matter altogether.
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solid
Aug 22, 2003, 12:41 AM
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heh. sprinting really won't bulk you up that much.
it WILL make your entire body that much stronger though.
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addiroids
Aug 22, 2003, 12:46 AM
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Time to dispel some myths and give some acknowagement of good stuff:
T-dog wrote:
In reply to: Long distance running should get rid of your gut faster and work your abs a lot.
slcliffdiver wrote:
In reply to: I'd go to a place with boulders and rocks and run on them and when I came to more of a dirt trail I'd still try and hop/run from feature to feature pick individual stones etc. so each step was precisely chosen. I think it improved my balance and foot eye coordination (both good for climbing).
toonarmy wrote:
In reply to: Your body makes different physiological changes depending at different intensity levels, with some of the greatest occuring at low intensity.
Hangerlessbolt wrote:
In reply to: Also do a search for HIIT training. High Intensity Interval Training. I would go into it…but you’ll learn more through your searches
Hombre_x wrote:
In reply to: As far as losing weight goes, walking is actually better. This may sound odd, but a friend of mine in pre-med pointed this out to me. When you're running, you're burning glycogen (sugar) stores in your body. In order to burn any fat, you'd have to use up all of the glycogen stored in your body first. As far as I can tell, that's more running than you probably want to do.
In reply to: In order to burn any fat, you'd have to use up all of the glycogen stored in your body first
Hombre_x again wrote:
In reply to: [A] runner can sometimes develop a "gut," as they may relax their stomach muscles while running
Photon wrote:
In reply to: run from man (from THE man usually works better)
climbs2much wrote:
In reply to: Once this happens you body switches over to burning fat which is very inefficent.
Solid wrote:
In reply to: The reason people get shinsplints etc is because they don't bother to do any opposing training. While you're sitting at your desk, do toe taps and that will alleviate most problems with shin splints (unless you've already had them in which case you might need a little more than toe taps [think]). It's also important to run backwards occassionally. Big toe-hell strides going as fast as you can and throwing your legs back as far as possible.
(muff)Muncher wrote:
In reply to: Go swimming isntead, its impact on joints etc is way less than running and it is very specific to climbing fitness, as climbing and swimming are practically the same anyway. When running, don't bother with too many all out sprints, you don't want to biuld up big powerful leg muscles that you are going to have to lug up a wall but if you are into alpine then that is another matter altogether
If I am wrong on any point, or if anyone has any questions, feel free to post them and I will try to answer them accurately.
TRADitionally yours,
Cali Dirtbag
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snapier
Aug 22, 2003, 2:10 AM
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I read the study that came a year or two ago that said walking was just as good for you as running. And this does make some sense to me. Running, if you're not careful and don't ease into can cause a lot of injuries and set you back quite a bit, so it would seem like walking would help you to be more consistent.
But the thing most people missed when they paraphrased the study was that yes it seems as though walking the same distance and running the same distance both have about equal benefit for you. The only thing is that I can run 10 miles in about an hour (on a good day) but walking that 10 miles would be about 5 hours.
And as for having a gut and running. I have a gut and run 70+ miles a week. I don't know if it's from relaxing my stomach muscles while running or if it's the $1 domestic bottles from 9pm-12am every Thurs-Sunday. hmmmmm.
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solid
Aug 22, 2003, 2:13 AM
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good points.
Another thing to consider, when running a lot your diet and hydration become incredibly important. You need to pay close attention to what you're eating and how it affects you the next day when you're running. And the water is an obvious one. Chronic dehydration will put you in the hospital.
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snapier
Aug 22, 2003, 2:19 AM
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Oh and a word on shin splints. Obviously I don't have the medical certifications like some might here, but here is my understanding after having dealt with them for the last 9 years:
Shin splints are a result of your calf muscles being too tight and thus the impact (8-10 times your body weight per step) of running will cause the force that cannot be absorbed by your calves to spread around to the thin muscles (are they ligaments or tendons? or something else) that are where your shins hurt. Thus, one thing I have found that has entirely eliminated shin splints is making sure to 3 or 4 times a day: stretch my calves. My favorite method is to stand on a stair with just the front of my foot and let my heels drop down and then rasie them up. I guess these are called calf raises?
Also try to run on trails as much as possible, especially when starting out. I like to think of golf balls when I am running on grass or trails. Imagine dropping a golf ball on asphalt or concrete and how high it bounces. Then imagine dropping that ball on the trail or grass. Now imagine your feet are golf balls....
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