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sittingduck
Aug 27, 2003, 2:38 PM
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Here is how I improvise a screamer if I feel I need one and for some reason dont have a proper one. It takes 3 carabiners, a prusic rope and a sling, stuff that we all have hanging around when climbing.
http://www.home.no/sittingduck/scream.gif
Had to draw this illustration since I cant explain the setup in writing.
EDIT: If you are conserned about the setup failing due to heath/melting, back it up with a long runner from the top carabiner to the bottom one.
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hellclimber
Aug 27, 2003, 2:47 PM
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Excellent post. Thanks for teaching me a new trick.
Just thinking out loud here but specifying that a nylon sling has to be used might be a good idea. I assume a spectra or dyneema sling would be a bit too slippery.
hellclimber
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cedk
Aug 27, 2003, 2:52 PM
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How hot does that sling get when it pulls through the cord on the friction knot? Hot enough to melt? Hot enough to weaken the sling?
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fear
Aug 27, 2003, 2:59 PM
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Seems like something that probably wouldn't work, if you're lucky. I bet in a good hard fall you'd come close to melting that sling....
Just buy a screamer,,, jeesh...
Whole point of a screamer is that the stitches blow absorbing some of the force, or at least reducing the peak load on the anchor. Your setup doesn't look like it would absorb much of anything....
-Fear
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keinangst
Aug 27, 2003, 2:59 PM
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In reply to: Just thinking out loud here but specifying that a nylon sling has to be used might be a good idea. I assume a spectra or dyneema sling would be a bit too slippery.
And would probably melt if introduced to such high heat. No sense taking chances. Also, you probably want to be sure that the water knot or stitching is well clear of the "pull-through" zone to prevent shearing :shock:
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joegoesup
Aug 27, 2003, 3:01 PM
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Great post, i will have to try this one when I am ice climbing. What size webbing are you using for the sling. 9/16 or 1 in.?
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sittingduck
Aug 27, 2003, 3:01 PM
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Your welcome hellclimber
If the materials you use seems slippery, just let the part of the sling that passes under two to four of the bach knot threads pass under more threads, like six or eight. This is imprivisation and I'll use the rubber band from my underwear if it makes that thin placement feel any safer :lol:
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hellclimber
Aug 27, 2003, 3:07 PM
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In reply to: ...Your setup doesn't look like it would absorb much of anything....
Have to disagree there. Where do you think the heat being mentioned in the other posts comes from. What this home made screamer does is convert some of the energy from the fall into heat. The trick would be to balance the friction correctly. Too much and the sling will fail. Too little and the screamer doesn't do its job. As for the "just buy a screamer comment"; sure a screamer would feel a bit safer but sometimes it is good to have a bag of tricks for use when you are in a bind and for some reason didn't bring that screamer. I think this is a setup that is well worth testing in a safe environment.
hellclimber
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billcoe_
Aug 27, 2003, 3:08 PM
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Sitting Duck: is that your psyodname for any reason?
I won't deny your genius: very creative and smart. But, I believe the points that the nylon may melt are very strong. I wouldn't want to have this as a sole means of keeping off of the deck in a dicy situation. Perhaps better to find another piece to back it up with?
Thank you for sharing! I've never seen it before!
Bill
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sittingduck
Aug 27, 2003, 3:14 PM
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In reply to: Sitting Duck: is that your psyodname for any reason? I won't deny your genius: very creative and smart. But, I believe the points that the nylon may melt are very strong. I wouldn't want to have this as a sole means of keeping off of the deck in a dicy situation. Perhaps better to find another piece to back it up with? Thank you for sharing! I've never seen it before! Bill
You could back it up with a long runner from the top to the bottom carabiner.
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hellclimber
Aug 27, 2003, 3:16 PM
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In reply to: Your welcome hellclimber If the materials you use seems slippery, just let the part of the sling that passes under two to four of the bach knot threads pass under more threads, like six or eight. This is imprivisation and I'll use the rubber band from my underwear if it makes that thin placement feel any safer :lol:
Ooh, bad idea. Stick to nylon. Spectra and dyneema really doesn't handle heat too well, like keinangst mentioned, and this setup seems to be dependent on the heat resistance of your sling.
Could use two slings in case one burns through. One the way you have described it and a backup of the same length that doesn't go through the bachman. This way, if one sling fails the other one might save the day...
hellclimber
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leapfrog
Aug 27, 2003, 3:16 PM
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Looks like a very interesting idea. What about this: back it up with another sling that connects the first and third biner, and not attached to the friction knot. Then you don't need to worry about melting.
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edge
Aug 27, 2003, 3:20 PM
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In reply to: Great post, i will have to try this one when I am ice climbing. |
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piton
Aug 27, 2003, 3:25 PM
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concept seems good but:
first off you have No way of controlling the shear ripp strength point. 2nd the webbing running through the cord is going to create heat which can result in faliure of the whole system.
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sittingduck
Aug 27, 2003, 3:25 PM
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In reply to: I'd love to see this all getting put together while hanging from one arm at a sketchy placement.
I dont hang much from my arm when I climb Aid.
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sittingduck
Aug 27, 2003, 3:26 PM
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In reply to: concept seems good but: first off you have No way of controlling the shear ripp strength point. 2nd the webbing running through the cord is going to create heat which can result in faliure of the whole system.
Back it up with a long runner from the top biner to the bottomone
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timstich
Aug 27, 2003, 3:26 PM
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While the trick looks interesting, that's about it. Done any testing of your set up with a weighted haul bag? Dropped it more than ten times? Done it when the knot is frozen/wet/full of crud? If not, I certainly wouldn't suggest you test it with a live load, namingly your own ass. I can assure you that this road is a road to nowhere. Believe me, I've tested enough of this kind of improvised crap with my own dumb ass taking the falls. Don't repeat the same flawed thinking about economy and cost/benefits.
Get one of those load limiters you can reset for via ferrata maybe. At least they have been proven to be able to handle the loads. This trick just seems like a last ditch act of desperation. Definitely treat it as such I would say.
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hellclimber
Aug 27, 2003, 3:29 PM
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In reply to: concept seems good but: first off you have No way of controlling the shear ripp strength point. 2nd the webbing running through the cord is going to create heat which can result in faliure of the whole system.
Don't run the second webbing through the cord. Use it as you would normally, thus backing the home made screamer up. Just a thought. Controlling the friction seems like the biggest problem here. I think this would require a bit of testing.
hellclimber
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piton
Aug 27, 2003, 3:34 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: concept seems good but: first off you have No way of controlling the shear ripp strength point. 2nd the webbing running through the cord is going to create heat which can result in faliure of the whole system. Back it up with a long runner from the top biner to the bottomone
ok so you back it up with a long runner:
when the screamer fails all the force is then generated to the pro. depending on the fall factor and if your rope's dynamic is all strectced out what happens then. 2 cases your pro rips or it doesn't rip.
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sittingduck
Aug 27, 2003, 4:01 PM
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In reply to: While the trick looks interesting, that's about it. Done any testing of your set up with a weighted haul bag? Dropped it more than ten times? Done it when the knot is frozen/wet/full of crud? If not, I certainly wouldn't suggest you test it with a live load, namingly your own ass. I can assure you that this road is a road to nowhere. Believe me, I've tested enough of this kind of improvised crap with my own dumb ass taking the falls. Don't repeat the same flawed thinking about economy and cost/benefits. Get one of those load limiters you can reset for via ferrata maybe. At least they have been proven to be able to handle the loads. This trick just seems like a last ditch act of desperation. Definitely treat it as such I would say.
Yes you are right, I have behaved like an idiot.
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copperhead
Aug 27, 2003, 4:06 PM
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Poor man's Screamer:
Save the plastic 6-pack holders next time you buy some good ol' Budweiser (cans of course). Fold the plastic pieces upon themselves such that all of the loops combine into one loop. Clip a biner at either end of the loop. Multiple plastic pieces may be used in conjunction (parallel) to increase activation force or the pieces may be used in series to increase the duration of activation time (and thus energy absorption). Backup with a longer sling. Have fun. :wink:
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socalclimber
Aug 27, 2003, 4:09 PM
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Once again copperhead has proven that resourcefullness is the mother of solutions. he he he...
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piton
Aug 27, 2003, 4:14 PM
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In reply to: Poor man's Screamer: Save the plastic 6-pack holders next time you buy some good ol' Budweiser (cans of course). Fold the plastic pieces upon themselves such that all of the loops combine into one loop. Clip a biner at either end of the loop. Multiple plastic pieces may be used in conjunction (parallel) to increase activation force or the pieces may be used in series to increase the duration of activation time (and thus energy absorption). Backup with a longer sling. Have fun. :wink:
copperhead the original McGiver :lol:
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djmeat
Aug 27, 2003, 4:33 PM
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I think the detractors on this thread really need just chill out.
Sure in a perfect world while climbing we would always have all of the gear we needed right there on our sling. But for those o us that live in the real world sometime you reach down and the piece you need just isn't there. Perhaps you started the climb with the right screamer but an early fall blew it out and now you need another. perhaps you are 5 pitches up and realize you need one or 2 more screamers than you have with you. In either case this is a great solution for what otherwise would be a much scarier situation.
regarding issues of sling failure: If you are in a situation were the placement might fail due to a fall. Then not using a screamer simply because it may fail, seems like double trouble. numerous people have mentioned the back up sling which is a great idea.
thirdly Spectra...is Dyneema
next issue I think the idea of the nylon melting might be a bit off. If anything the perlon cord used to make the prusik would melt first. The runner would be moving through the system in the event of a fall. the sling would only be under the line for a short period of time if any portion is goign to heat up to a dangerous level it would be the cord.
But again who cares this is design as a last resort no other option system anyways. So I for one will definitly be placing this in my mental bag of tricks.
neat idea sitting duck
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rrrADAM
Aug 27, 2003, 4:44 PM
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The sling will not melt, just the prusik is at risk, and this is not load bearing. It only serves to moderate the amount of tension on the sling. The contact are of the sling is always in motion, whereas the prusik is focussed on one area.
You stand just as much chance melting the sling, as you would melting the rope if you fell on a prusik on that rope... The rope wouldn't melt, just the prusik would.
GREAT idea !!!
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