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double Ratings
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mustclimb69


Sep 3, 2003, 9:15 AM
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double Ratings
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I am training to do somebig wall climbing soon andmy research has often brought up 2 ratings... for example The nose is 5.13b/c or 5.9 C2
Curious more than anything.


ancrtz_climber


Sep 3, 2003, 9:28 AM
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I'm gunna add on to this: I see alot of Aid lines with either an A rating, a C rating, or both. So whats the difference between say, A2 and C2?


crankenstein


Sep 3, 2003, 9:29 AM
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What's curious to me is that given the number of people climbing 13b/c why hasn't there been a second free ascent party? I think that shows just how far ahead of the rest of the climbing world Lynn Hill was when she freed it. I'm also wondering why you are curious about the double rating. One is the free climb rating and one is the aid rating which also contains a YDS rating for the free climbing level required during an aided ascent.


nbrown


Sep 3, 2003, 9:31 AM
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the C stands for clean aid and the A is regular aid.


epic_ed


Sep 3, 2003, 9:34 AM
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Ususally a mixed rating indicates one of two possibilities:

1) The original grade at which the FA party established the route. The FAist put up a route that is 5.11/A2. In this case the 5.11 rating reflects the hardest section of free climbing they encountered on the route and A2 indicates the hardest aid section they pounded through.

2) On routes that have been long established, it's not uncommon for them to get re-rated over time. On many current topos, the free climbing grade reflects the hardest mandatory free climbing you will need to do to get up the route. The aid rating indicates the hardest section of aid. The rating does not necessairly reflect the high end of the free climbing that is possible. A good example is the Nose. Current aid gear allows you to climb almost the entire route on aid at a C2 difficulty. I think the hardest "mandatory" free climbing you must do (can't find a way to aid through it) is 5.7. So you'll see rout rating for the Nose ranging anywhere from 5.10/A2 to 5.7/C2 depending on when the topo was created. Most parties will free climb all pitches up to 5.10 on the Nose and aid the rest. But you don't have to. If you don't want to free climb anything harder than 5.7, you can aid through most of the Nose.

3) A third explanation is possible. This is when looking at individaul pitches on a topo that have dual ratings. You'll often see a pitch rated "5.x/Cx". This indicates the difficulty you can expect on a give pitch depending on how you plan to climb it. For example, the second pitch on Zodiac has a section that the topo indicates as "5.7 or C2". If you free climb through that section expect the difficulty to be 5.7. If you choose to aid through it, it goes at C2.

Ed


ep


Sep 3, 2003, 9:57 AM
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On many current topos, the free climbing grade reflects the hardest mandatory free climbing you will need to do to get up the route.

Not really true. Consider the ratings on the current Supertopos for The Nose (5.9 C2) and the South Face of Washington Column (5.8 C1). One can in fact climb The Nose and aid just about the whole darn thing. The Texas Flake chimney (5.8) is mandatory free and there are a few other sections, but no 5.9 is required. The South Face can be aided down to about 5.6.

Most parties will free climb all pitches up to 5.10 on the Nose and aid the rest.

Really? You've taken a survey? I know of many parties that didn't do a single 5.10 move on The Nose. I haven't taken a poll either but my impression is that there are many climbers on The Nose who are happy as pie just to haul their butts up it any way they can.


epic_ed


Sep 3, 2003, 10:36 AM
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Really? You've taken a survey? I know of many parties that didn't do a single 5.10 move on The Nose. I haven't taken a poll either but my impression is that there are many climbers on The Nose who are happy as pie just to haul their butts up it any way they can.

No survey -- just my impression. I certainly wouldn't be able to free that much of it. Most people I've talked to and TRs I've read about the Nose indicate they recommend freeing as much as possible -- usually up to 5.10 -- in order to move up the route quicker. But whatever. I'd be among the "happy as pie" crowd. Supertopos are a good indicator of the point I made above about reflecting mandatory free sections. Seems Chris lists the overall rating based on how the "average" party will climb the route. Has he taken a survey? Doubt it. Probably just going on his impressions, too. Granted, he has a tremendous base of experience to base that impression on. But he also breaks down each specific pitch into what grade you can expect to encounter for free or aid, and specifically indicates what sections are mandatory free and cannot be aided.

Ed


mattm


Sep 3, 2003, 10:52 AM
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Another explanation - the "double rating" can also be "average joe" rating and "hard man/woman" all free rating. Nose - 5.13b/c is Lynn Hill's all free rating of it. Scott Burke is the only other one to climb it free and has said it's harder - 5.14 ish


fear


Sep 3, 2003, 11:02 AM
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In reply to:
What's curious to me is that given the number of people climbing 13b/c why hasn't there been a second free ascent party? I think that shows just how far ahead of the rest of the climbing world Lynn Hill was when she freed it. I'm also wondering why you are curious about the double rating. One is the free climb rating and one is the aid rating which also contains a YDS rating for the free climbing level required during an aided ascent.

The roof pitch would require very very tiny and very very strong fingers to go free.....

I would have done it free when I was there last but I didn't want to steal her thunder...

-Fear


ep


Sep 3, 2003, 11:07 AM
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In reply to:
Another explanation - the "double rating" can also be "average joe" rating and "hard man/woman" all free rating.

Another explanation, yes. But unfortunately it is incorrect.

The two ratings simply reflect different amounts of aid that can be utilized. The Nose 5.13b/c or 5.9 C2 is a pretty clear example. It doesn't mean that you can't climb the Nose as 5.8 C2 or 5.10 C2 or 5.11 C2. All of those happen to be possible too. Another example would be the Shield 5.7 A3 or C4F. In this case, both ratings involve aid, but the second version is "C"lean aid (hammerless) and relies on in place "F"ixed gear. As Ed pointed out Supertacos list mandatory free on a per pitch basis. But for an overall rating, it would be too cumbersome to try and spell that all out so one (or two) ratings are all you get.


maculated


Sep 3, 2003, 1:24 PM
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Pie is happy?


ep


Sep 3, 2003, 1:51 PM
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Pie is happy?

I think the real expression is "easy as pie", kind of like "piece of cake". I guess I munged it a bit for my own purposes. Oh well, no skin off my teeth.

Time's fun when you're having flies. - Kermit the Frog


squish


Sep 3, 2003, 7:56 PM
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In reply to:
In reply to:
Pie is happy?

I think the real expression is "easy as pie", kind of like "piece of cake". I guess I munged it a bit for my own purposes. Oh well, no skin off my teeth.

Teeth have skin?


Partner philbox
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Sep 3, 2003, 8:18 PM
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In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
Pie is happy?

I think the real expression is "easy as pie", kind of like "piece of cake". I guess I munged it a bit for my own purposes. Oh well, no skin off my teeth.

Teeth have skin?

You have teeth?


brutusofwyde


Sep 6, 2003, 10:12 PM
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In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
Pie is happy?

I think the real expression is "easy as pie", kind of like "piece of cake". I guess I munged it a bit for my own purposes. Oh well, no skin off my teeth.

Teeth have skin?

You have teeth?

Looks like all the sacred cows are coming home to roost.


Partner coldclimb


Sep 6, 2003, 11:01 PM
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In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
Pie is happy?

I think the real expression is "easy as pie", kind of like "piece of cake". I guess I munged it a bit for my own purposes. Oh well, no skin off my teeth.

Teeth have skin?

You have teeth?

Looks like all the sacred cows are coming home to roost.

I've heard of Holy Cows, but Sacred Cows that roost have got to take the cake. :lol:


sixter


Sep 6, 2003, 11:44 PM
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In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
Pie is happy?

I think the real expression is "easy as pie", kind of like "piece of cake". I guess I munged it a bit for my own purposes. Oh well, no skin off my teeth.

Teeth have skin?

You have teeth?

Looks like all the sacred cows are coming home to roost.

I've heard of Holy Cows, but Sacred Cows that roost have got to take the cake. :lol:

Don't walk under the trees where the Sacred Cows are roosting.


ropeburn


Sep 7, 2003, 12:16 AM
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In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
Pie is happy?

I think the real expression is "easy as pie", kind of like "piece of cake". I guess I munged it a bit for my own purposes. Oh well, no skin off my teeth.

Teeth have skin?

You have teeth?

Looks like all the sacred cows are coming home to roost.

I've heard of Holy Cows, but Sacred Cows that roost have got to take the cake. :lol:

Don't walk under the trees where the Sacred Cows are roosting.

I have teeth.
My teeth have skin.
Therefore, I am a cow.


:mrgreen:


duskerhu


Sep 7, 2003, 3:19 AM
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Re: double Ratings [In reply to]
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In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
Pie is happy?

I think the real expression is "easy as pie", kind of like "piece of cake". I guess I munged it a bit for my own purposes. Oh well, no skin off my teeth.

Teeth have skin?

You have teeth?

Looks like all the sacred cows are coming home to roost.

I've heard of Holy Cows, but Sacred Cows that roost have got to take the cake. :lol:

Don't walk under the trees where the Sacred Cows are roosting.

I have teeth.
My teeth have skin.
Therefore, I am a cow.


:mrgreen:
But apparently not a Sacred Cow thats gone home to roost...


brutusofwyde


Sep 7, 2003, 3:46 PM
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Registered: Nov 3, 2002
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Re: double Ratings [In reply to]
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In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
Pie is happy?

I think the real expression is "easy as pie", kind of like "piece of cake". I guess I munged it a bit for my own purposes. Oh well, no skin off my teeth.

Teeth have skin?

You have teeth?

Looks like all the sacred cows are coming home to roost.

I've heard of Holy Cows, but Sacred Cows that roost have got to take the cake. :lol:

Don't walk under the trees where the Sacred Cows are roosting.

I have teeth.
My teeth have skin.
Therefore, I am a cow.


:mrgreen:
But apparently not a Sacred Cow thats gone home to roost...

...unless he is a Rooster who is wholly a coward?, in which case he couldn't halve his cake and eat crow, too.


b_fost


Sep 7, 2003, 4:11 PM
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In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
Pie is happy?

I think the real expression is "easy as pie", kind of like "piece of cake". I guess I munged it a bit for my own purposes. Oh well, no skin off my teeth.

Teeth have skin?

You have teeth?

Looks like all the sacred cows are coming home to roost.

I've heard of Holy Cows, but Sacred Cows that roost have got to take the cake. :lol:

Don't walk under the trees where the Sacred Cows are roosting.

I have teeth.
My teeth have skin.
Therefore, I am a cow.


:mrgreen:
But apparently not a Sacred Cow thats gone home to roost...

...unless he is a Rooster who is wholly a coward?, in which case he couldn't halve his cake and eat crow, too.

cows don't eat cake, they eat pie.

and skin off their sacred teeth.


robmcc


Sep 7, 2003, 5:30 PM
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In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
Pie is happy?

I think the real expression is "easy as pie", kind of like "piece of cake". I guess I munged it a bit for my own purposes. Oh well, no skin off my teeth.

Teeth have skin?

You have teeth?

Looks like all the sacred cows are coming home to roost.

I've heard of Holy Cows, but Sacred Cows that roost have got to take the cake. :lol:

Don't walk under the trees where the Sacred Cows are roosting.

I have teeth.
My teeth have skin.
Therefore, I am a cow.


:mrgreen:
But apparently not a Sacred Cow thats gone home to roost...

...unless he is a Rooster who is wholly a coward?, in which case he couldn't halve his cake and eat crow, too.

cows don't eat cake, they eat pie.

That would be cow pie, I presume?


ecowain


Sep 17, 2003, 5:08 PM
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Not to mention the burrowing cows that live in wombat holes in inland New South Wales.

Or the drop bears.


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