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mother_sheep
Sep 4, 2003, 7:31 PM
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So I was wondering if there would ever be an advantage to doing a wall in a party of 3. What if everyone had a specific role? Like 2 people were the leaders and 1 person was the hauler? Is doing a wall in a party of 3 just asking for even more of a fluster cluck?
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wigglestick
Sep 4, 2003, 7:36 PM
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When done properly a team of 3 can move faster than a team of 2. Because somebody is always leading and leading/hauling/cleaning can happen simultaneously. Although if done wrong it can turn into total chaos very quickly.
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atg200
Sep 4, 2003, 7:51 PM
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i think you'll have a rough time finding anyone dumb enough to be a dedicated hauler. all the wall misery, none of the fun.
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peas
Sep 5, 2003, 11:02 PM
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On the last aid route I was on we had a dedicated hauler. She had never been aiding before and wanted to sleep on the wall, so she came along to haul. She had a lot of fun. So if you're lucky you could find a dedicated hauler. I think it usually works better if you rotate jobs though. Not speaking from personal experience though.
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brutusofwyde
Sep 7, 2003, 2:19 AM
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One of the clearest descriptions of one effective system for a team of three was posted by Amanda Tarr several years back:
She said:
OK, you've got three people, Ugly, Stinky, and Shorty. You also probably
have at least two haulbags, Pig1 and Pig2.
1) Ugly leads.
2) Ugly zips up both haul lines, fixes one, and starts hauling with the other.
3) Stinky starts jugging the fixed haul line. No, one can not tie in here. One could back up with a prussik if one wished.
4) Shorty cleans up the belay, frees Pig1, etc.
5) Stinky reaches the belay where Ugly is hauling, transfers gear, and has Ugly put her on a lead belay. (A grigri is nice here, because Ugly can continue hauling)
6) Stinky starts leading, Ugly finishes hauling Pig1, and can set up the haul for Pig2 now that Stinky is off of the haul line. *note- Stinky must bring up her own lead line from the previous belay as the original lead line is still running down to Shorty.
7) Ugly clears Pig2 from the lower anchor, and Shorty is then free to begin cleaning Ugly's pitch.
8) Once Shorty reaches Ugly, the rest of the rack can be zipped up to Stinky, if necessary.
repeat 30 times.
I did a 3 person, a 2 person, then another 3 person wall this spring, and
the differences I noticed are these:
1) 3 people create 1 massive cluster. If you don't stay on top of rope management, etc., you'll get slowed down a lot.
2) there seems to be less exertion/person with 3 people
3) it's nice having 3 to deal with annoying crap like stuck haulbags, etc.
4) it's nice to have someone extra to make fun of
5) overall, I think that three is faster when the pitches take longer to
lead and clean (steep, long, nailing, hard, whatever). If it's an A1 route,
I think 3 would be a lot slower just due to extra cluster, but I could be
wrong. Also, I think it's important to get people who all know when they
have a job to do, and how to do it.
Amanda
One other observation: Rope bags and cordelettes are almost required fot this system, or things can get nasty fast. the ropes are moving around such that they cannot be used as the basic anchor, hence the need for cordelettes... Brutus
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drunkenmonkey
Sep 8, 2003, 11:10 AM
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tracyroach
i went up my first two walls in a party of three and i have to say it's a good idea. There's a number of pro's and a number of con's to the idea.
pro's
1 always someone to talk to, which if its your first wall can be good as it stops you from getting too psyched out.
2 A spare pair of hands to help organise everything like setting up the ledge so your good and comfy at all times.
3 Another pair of eyes to make sure no one gets too dehydrated or runs out of juice which if your new to it can be important.
4 An extra weight to get the hauling done, with two or more pigs the weight can really add up. use the third person as a counter balance when hauling this can make hauling almost dreamy! (well almost)
5 You can always catch some shut eye during the day!
your third can be racked and ready to go the moment the line is fixed.
6 always someone leading
Con's
1 More people more gear.(don't take three ledges, get cosy with someone on a double and a single, believe me three is not the lucky number.)
2 more gear more weight
3 more weight worse hauling but see point 4 above.
4 more people = more different ways of doing things = more fluster clucks! (its worth agreeing a basic system before you start)
5 more people more personality clash potential
those are just some thoughts from my experiences.
The other major issue we thought afterwards was leading in blocks or a rolling leader idea.
Rolling leader = always fresh and psyched
leading in blocks = getting into the rythme of leading
like all of these things there are + & - and you have to try and find what works for you.
if you want to pick my meagre brain anymore your more than welcome.
take it easy
P :shock:
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passthepitonspete
Sep 8, 2003, 8:44 PM
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While there is some good information here, there is also some good information here, too:
The Better Way to climb in a Team of Three.
We're trying to make the Aid Forum a central repository of information, and the best way to do this is to keep relevant topics together. There's no point in repeating and diluting.
Ed, O Moderator, could you please combine these two posts, so as not to dilute this information?
Cheers!
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atg200
Sep 8, 2003, 9:20 PM
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and if you do combine them mr moderator, please delete pete's non-technical self serving post about his rants in the other 3man systems post. all in the interest of reducing the clusterf*ck you know.
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passthepitonspete
Sep 9, 2003, 2:40 AM
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I concur with the above. Please do.
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iamthewallress
Sep 9, 2003, 6:38 PM
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I think that when topics get repeated, the questions are often posed in a somewhat different way, and the people who give repeat answers also doing it in a somewhat different way, so the end result if more knowledge. I have a habit of skipping posts that begin with "Ask Dr. Piton because the S:N is them is always too great. Sometimes I'll reask a question specifically because I want a new perspective. It's not as though this were a shoe thread. The party of 3 horse has yet to be beaten to death IMO.
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crimsontime
Oct 14, 2003, 11:31 PM
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Pete's posts are informative but sometimes a one line answer is all that's needed. This is a forum, not a guidebook.
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karlbaba
Oct 16, 2003, 5:12 AM
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I think walls can be faster with three if all, or most, of the crew are experienced wall climbers, particularly if the intent is to do the climb in a push.
In most other circumstances, the additional cluster, and particularly the usual need for a second haul bag, make things go slower. When I see a party of three on a wall, they're commonly going slower than the parties of two.
Peace
Karl
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