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sprocket
Sep 10, 2003, 7:31 PM
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La times article yesterday says volcanic cave climbing area in south lake is closed and bolts are being chopped.Local climbers are protesting and I wonder if anyone out there is involved.
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tylerm
Sep 10, 2003, 7:34 PM
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Volcanic Cave? Are you talking about Cave Rock? If so, that sucks. That place, although currently closed (again) is awesome. I live at the North shore of Lake Tahoe and did not hear anything yet. Will update if I hear anything.
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sprocket
Sep 10, 2003, 7:40 PM
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Is the area dangerous or somthing.I think thats what the rangers think.
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caughtinside
Sep 10, 2003, 7:42 PM
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Ouch!
So the indians got their way. No more climbing at cave rock.
Racially motivated special interests win again. :x
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sprocket
Sep 10, 2003, 7:45 PM
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Oh yeah its the Local indians against climbers.
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herm
Sep 10, 2003, 7:48 PM
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being a white boy climber is also a racially motivated special interest group. Our impacts, especially sport climbing in a confined area, does make a difference. Too bad that impact bugged a couple of indians who considered Cave Rock to be their own little natural alter.
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sprocket
Sep 10, 2003, 7:49 PM
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heres a link to an older thread http://www.rockclimbing.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=35169
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killclimbz
Sep 10, 2003, 7:56 PM
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Just wait till you see how trashed out this area gets, now that the climbing is gone. I'm sure the Native American respect will be right up there with how they treat the land around Cochita Mesa and such areas.
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sprocket
Sep 10, 2003, 8:02 PM
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hmmmm
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camhead
Sep 12, 2003, 12:26 AM
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at least it's not a trad area getting shut down.
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tenn_dawg
Sep 12, 2003, 12:43 AM
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Ummm, guys. It's not getting shut down due to "racial" motivations. It's a gender issue. The indians didn't want females there.
Travis
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bsignorelli
Sep 12, 2003, 2:00 AM
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In reply to: If you read about it in the tahoe guidebook there's a bit of history on the relationship between the climbers and the N. Americans and I'm a little bummed that it didn't work out to everyone's idea of perfection but I am on the side of the N. Americans.
Europeans came...Europeans conquored...the Indians should have assimilated like every other person who lives in America has done. This seperate Nation with differening rights is just plain silly.
In reply to: I did feel guilty being there on account of my being a woman
Bryan
Edited to take out the Daisy joke. It was such an inside joke that even she didn't get it :)
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alwaysforward
Sep 12, 2003, 2:16 AM
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In reply to: Europeans came...Europeans conquored...the Indians should have assimilated like every other person who lives in America has done.
STFU. Just STFU. You're a moron in the first degree.
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dano
Sep 12, 2003, 2:22 AM
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Again, not an attack but I'm a little confused here - Daisy, you're saying that you're okay with banning climbing there b/c for the local tribe it's a spiritual issue... okay, i'm with you so far - i might disagree with the outcome but can (in theory) respect the cause. But you say you went there anyway, even knowing that the 'spirit' of the rule and the basis of the request is (in part at least) designed to keep you, a woman, out? I know you felt guilty, but that's kinda grey spiritually isn't it?
As for whoever it was saying that they should have been 'assimilated'... dude - that's just completely insensitive - i may not have a whole lotta good to say about the epsicopalian church but i'm not likely to pull on the zens and builder the National Gallery either you know?
On the other hand, since I don't have anything nice to say today maybe I should shut the f_ up myself. (or get a job that doesn't stress me out so much !)
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soma
Sep 12, 2003, 2:24 AM
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What is more "spiritual" than climbing. Meditating? Please.
Dave
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tenn_dawg
Sep 12, 2003, 2:24 AM
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In reply to: Please don't tell bsig to STFU. He doesn't like it, and is entitled to his opinion. Thanks!
Daisyfay,
This is the most fine example of someone being diplomatic and polite as I have ever seen on this site, or in real life for that matter. Let me know if you're ever in the South East. I'd share a rope with you any day.
Travis
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bsignorelli
Sep 12, 2003, 2:25 AM
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In reply to: STFU. Just STFU. You're a moron in the first degree.
Would have been funnier if Daisy had said it.
Would have also been pretty funny with you saying it had you thrown in a smiley :) or two :) :)
Normally...I think RC.com protocol requires me to make a Canadian joke but I'm going to skip it this time since I recently scored a sweet deal on some slightly used tricams from a Canadian climber. :)
Anyways...attack the idaes...not the people...
Bryan
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bsignorelli
Sep 12, 2003, 2:35 AM
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In reply to: As for whoever it was saying that they should have been 'assimilated'
Thats me...
In reply to: ... dude - that's just completely insensitive
And you may be right...about it being insensitive. But... I don't really agree with special privilages for any particular group of people.
In reply to: i may not have a whole lotta good to say about the epsicopalian church but i'm not likely to pull on the zens and builder the National Gallery either you know?
See...it's just a building/cliff...that's it. It's not a special portal that is your connection through space and time to the supreme powers.
I say if it looks good, send it. Just get pictures so your friends will belive you :)
In reply to: On the other hand, since I don't have anything nice to say today maybe I should shut the f_ up myself.
If we all took this attutide (and Daisys) then we wouldn't waste most of our time sifting through the drivel that is present on this site jsut to get to the few morsals of good info.
In reply to: (or get a job that doesn't stress me out so much !)
I hear ya on that one...
Bryan
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bsignorelli
Sep 12, 2003, 2:39 AM
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In reply to: no worries. To me its about a culture clash and my personal opinion is that it's not wrong for the tribe to ask for this space for their cultural purposes.
Personal opinions are good to have. Some are wrong and some aren't. (Not inferring anything here) :)
Like you say a couple of posts down...its good to have discussions with people who have different opinions that you do.
It's just that a lot of people (on this site) can't handle differening opinions (as good as you :)) and resort to personal attacks.
Keep it clean and keep it going ...
Bryan
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tenn_dawg
Sep 12, 2003, 2:42 AM
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In reply to: It's just that a lot of people (on this site) can't handle differening opinions (as good as you :)) and resort to personal attacks. Bryan
STFU you friggin TOOL!!!111 :lol:
Hahaha, I couldn't resist...
Travis
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pehperboy
Sep 12, 2003, 2:50 AM
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In reply to: I think RC.com protocol requires me to make a Canadian joke but I'm going to skip it this time...
Given the date, I'll refrain from making an American joke. I regret to see some of the comments of bsignorelli. I hope others from outside the U.S. will not let his ignorance influence their views of other Americans.
As for "it's just a building/cliff" that is simply wrong. It is much more than that to a certain group of people and has been for millenia. For them it is a portal through space and time to the supreme powers. The culture BS thinks they should be assimilated in to has its own, less grand such spaces - they're called churches.
Anyhow, it's not about "privilages" (I think he meant priveleges), it's about respect for another culture. Today, when Amercian must stop and think about the supreme disrespect another culture inflicted upon it, is a good time to think about ending the ignorance and disrespect seen in bsignorelli's posts.
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tenn_dawg
Sep 14, 2003, 2:49 PM
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Hey, good job Eric.
The Cave Rock topic is back from the land of the forgotten threads.
Consider this a BUMP to get things going again.
Travis
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w6jxm
Sep 14, 2003, 3:37 PM
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Just one thing. The inidans did not have a problem with drunks and partiers hanging out and trashing the place before climbers arived. When you consider all the work that Dan O and other climbers put into cleaning that place up, the indians should be thanking us, not banning. Screw their little spiritual politics. Its ok to trash their "church" but not climb there. ? Huh. This hurts my brain. :twisted:
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joeschmoe
Sep 14, 2003, 4:43 PM
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daisyfay you rock, the fact that you felt weird/guilty climbing there i think just speaks the frame of mind i try to carry/achieve wilst on rock or board. I think what most people (and i use that term loosely) miss/forget is that despite the fact that we may feel a 'spiritual' experience while on the rock, according to several religions (usually anything non-judeo-christian based) we leave imprints behind and 'taint' the area so to speak. so having alot of traffic in an area is the equivalent of going to your local climbing area to find it trashed w/ broken bottles, toilette paper, beer cans etc. It feels different than that area thats basically virgin rock. same notion for the so called 'spiritual' areas.
personally i have no issue respecting a particular culture's spiritual sanctuary. does it suck though that our government which is supposed to lack religious affiliation is willing to bend to a religious will, yes. but guess what there's no such thing as seperation of church and state and if you don't believe that look at a dollar bill, say the pledge, etc.
So perhaps if we as a climbing society would respect the wishes other cultures more, the government might not step in and 'resolve' the issue (ie close the site). Is it fair that we should bend to their wishes, not really. but can it help to keep sites open, maybe.
"flame on" -- the torch
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