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tendertendons
Sep 16, 2003, 6:30 PM
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Registered: Sep 11, 2003
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Hi all,
Since I started trad climbing I've been using the re-woven bowline backed up by a double fisherman's knot and I'm wondering if this is a safe practice? Many trad climbers I see out at the crags are tying in with a re-woven figure 8 (a la gym top-rope) but I like the compactness of the bowline as well as the ability to easily untie it after it has been weighted. When I was just starting out in climbing and falling on harder gym routes the loading would often tighten the figure 8 to a point where it felt like it was permanently seized. I can only imagine that this situation would be much worse after even a moderate leader fall.
For reference, I'm using a standard 10.5 mm rope, double dry treated (Roca Tasmania).
Thanks for the input,
:D
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vegastradguy
Sep 16, 2003, 6:44 PM
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Registered: Aug 28, 2002
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it's really up to you. there's different reasons to use either one. if you're cragging single pitches, and untying after every one, then the bowline is fine.
if you're multipitching, the bowline is still fine, since you back it up properly. the argument for untying is sort of a case by case basis. i tie in at the bottom of a multipitch and dont untie until the top. i also want a know that i know wont loosen over time, which i have 'heard' a bowline can do (but don't know for a fact that it will). so, a figure 8 is my knot of choice. however, that's the way i climb. many climbers untie after every pitch to swap rope ends, and in this case, a bowline may be better. its really a personal choice along with the situation at hand.
another reason the 8 is more popular is that a figure 8 is more easily recognized as tied properly than a bowline by many climbers, so if your partner doesnt know if you've tied in properly, it may be safer to tie in with an 8. i'm guessing, though, that both you and your partner(s) tie in with a bowline and can recognize if its tied properly very easily...
also, take this for what it is, i dont climb with a bowline, i never have, so i cant really speak to it for trad purposes. however, i'm sure you'll get advice for one way or another.
either way, for safety, a properly backed up bowline is every bit as safe as a properly backed up figure 8 knot.
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coclimber26
Sep 19, 2003, 1:30 PM
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Registered: Sep 8, 2002
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On paper the figure 8 and bowline are almost equal. the 8 looses about 25% strength at the knot and the bowline is about 30%. The bowline is easier to untie but it is also easier to tie incorrectly. When you tie a bowline make sure that when the knot is done the tail is on the inside of the loop and not the outside. Finishing it with a single or double overhand is fine. It seems like people stoped tieing in with the bowline in the 60's and I'm not sure why...
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nafod
Sep 19, 2003, 1:34 PM
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Registered: Jun 5, 2003
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In reply to: On paper the figure 8 and bowline are almost equal. the 8 looses about 25% strength at the knot and the bowline is about 30%. The bowline is easier to untie but it is also easier to tie incorrectly. When you tie a bowline make sure that when the knot is done the tail is on the inside of the loop and not the outside. Finishing it with a single or double overhand is fine. It seems like people stoped tieing in with the bowline in the 60's and I'm not sure why...
I think you are thinking about a different bowline. With the rewoven, there is no inside or outside of the loop, as both sides progress all the way through the knot. The rewoven can be tied "in the bight", for example.
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rcaret
Sep 19, 2003, 2:27 PM
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Registered: Jul 30, 2002
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The only advantage to the figure eight is it absorbs some of the energy in a fall ( because it tightens ) as a bowline dose not and the bowline unties easier because of this , The eight is stronger although they both are strong enough for a great tie in .
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coclimber26
Sep 20, 2003, 1:25 AM
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Registered: Sep 8, 2002
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Yep your right, I misread it...
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