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mntnman1973
Oct 6, 2003, 12:40 AM
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I have used the Clove Hitch on a single locker, the Figure Eight on a Bite on two lockers, and the Gri Gri which feeds the rope practically on its own.
My question is: What is the easiest and the safest way to backup yourself while cleaning aid. I don't see the ascenders failing but just in case they do you are safe.
Thanks in advance. 8)
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ncclimber
Oct 6, 2003, 12:57 AM
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i use a Gri-Gri it works well for me and I feed the rope thruogh , when youmget enough rope wieght it will fed itself.
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flamer
Oct 6, 2003, 1:25 AM
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I agree the grigri works well for this.
josh
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dsafanda
Oct 6, 2003, 4:49 PM
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I would think think that the safest would surely the Gri-Gri and multiple Figure-Eights in to a locking biner every 20-30 feet. This would be overkill for a lot of climbers though.
I tend to be pretty conservative(i.e. chicken sh*t) If I'm cleaning with a Gri-Gri as my lower ascender I'll back it up with 3-4 figure eights over the coarse of a full rope length. If I'm cleaning with two ascenders and no Gri-Gri, I probably tend to tie more frequent back up knots.
As for the easiest...I don't understand...you admited that you've already used each of the three most common techniques. Which did you think was easiest? I tend to think that aid climbing is one of those activities in which there are always half a dozen different ways to accomplish the same task. What you find works best for YOU is usually the best way no?
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flamer
Oct 6, 2003, 5:37 PM
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In reply to: As for the easiest...I don't understand...you admited that you've already used each of the three most common techniques. Which did you think was easiest? I tend to think that aid climbing is one of those activities in which there are always half a dozen different ways to accomplish the same task. What you find works best for YOU is usually the best way no?
BINGO!!!!
josh
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brianinslc
Oct 6, 2003, 5:43 PM
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In reply to: I have used the Clove Hitch on a single locker, the Figure Eight on a Bite on two lockers, and the Gri Gri which feeds the rope practically on its own. My question is: What is the easiest and the safest way to backup yourself while cleaning aid. I don't see the ascenders failing but just in case they do you are safe.
Figure eight on a locker. I usually clip two lockers to my harness and alternate between them.
With a gri gri, a DMM belay slave makes sense as the gri gri tends to slide down the shaft of a biner and minor axis load which, might bust that biner (and has). That plastic sleeve thingy on the DMM locking biner really helps trap the gri gri in the end of the biner.
Brian in SLC
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apollodorus
Oct 6, 2003, 6:28 PM
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MrHardGrit will tell you that you need to back up the Gri-Gri by tying into the rope. He ripped a head on Eagle's Way last year, broke a rivet hanger, broke his Gri-Gri locker and finally stopped when his tie-in held.
Using the Gri-Gri as a back-up is not a great idea. The frame can put a twisting load on the locker and break it. The best thing is to use loops tied in the rope, and also be tied into the end directly to your harness.
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ctgunkie
Oct 6, 2003, 6:51 PM
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Apollo - Not sure if it makes a difference to your answer but his question was about cleaning a pitch - presumably using two ascenders and the gri gri as a back up where you're not likely to get whippers. Your example sounds like the guy was leading and blew a head and took a leader fall on his gri gri. Am I missing something?
Thanks.
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ep
Oct 6, 2003, 7:11 PM
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No, you got it. HardGrit took a factor 2 fall and (probably) cross loaded the carabiner in his grigri. If you managed to blow off both of your jugs, you'd fall a few feet maybe, and at a much, much lower fall factor.
Still, I'd rather just use knots. It also helps keep the rope from getting stuck way down there below you.
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mikemachineco
Oct 6, 2003, 8:02 PM
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I also know people who use a Petzl Traxion or Mini Traxion or another small ascender to back up when jugging but I'm not sure how well those are designed to hold falls if your jugs blew.
Any concrete evidence to support this method or discredit it?
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mrhardgrit
Oct 7, 2003, 11:25 AM
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I'll use a clove-hitch as a backup to my grigri when cleaning and pitch. IMO clovehitch and fig-8 are much of a likeness except one is faster to tie/untie.
As for a minitraxion - I used to use one for rope soloing all the time as it feeds through the rope so smoothly and all that is needed is for you weight the bottom end of your rope [note, this is roped-soloing of the top-roping variety i am talking about here - not leading!]. Have taken quite a few light falls (no more that 1 ft, as tope-roping) onto minitraxion and it has held and no probs with rope damage. Personally I wouldn't advise using it as it is easy to forget to put the cam into the correct position ... and you can guess what happens with that!
Stick with simplicity. Especially on walls.
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ricardol
Oct 7, 2003, 10:25 PM
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.. i tie into the end of the lead line .. and then tie in every 20 to 30 feet as i clean .. though that is mostly to keep the rope in check .. you dont want to be trailing a 70' loop of rope at the top of a windy pitch .. you can be sure to have a mess or even worse if you do that.. (the loop will catch somwehere) ..
while ascending (in cleaning) you're almost always weighing the grigri .. i'd say the chances of the grigri failing while cleaning are close to nil
-- ricardo
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nefarius
Oct 12, 2003, 6:33 PM
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That was exactly where I was going to go with this... Regardless of what you are using as a backup, you should be tieing knots in the rope every so often. If nothing else, the simply to manage the rope and prevent it from getting hung up on the route below you, or to the side, and you spending lots of time trying to free it.
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passthepitonspete
Nov 12, 2003, 7:13 PM
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If you are cleaning an aid pitch the Better Way, then you will be using one jug, and a Grigri as an ascender. As described in this link, you will use it in conjunction with either your adjustable fifi, or else you'll have your jug on a releasable-under-tension type of adjustable daisy - Yates style, not Metolius.
On cleaning [not] the Grigri is itself an acceptable backup. However, you can't make it work as an ascender with a hundred feet of rope hanging beneath you.
The way I like to do it is to have a Designated Backup Locker on a short sewn sling girth-hitched and hanging from one of my donuts. I use a wide-gate autolocker, and tie overhand knot backups every twenty or thirty feet - not so much cuz I need a backup, but because I don't want the weight of the rope hanging out the free end of the Grigri, and even more importantly, I don't want tails blowing in the wind where they are sure to get hung up on some flake fifty feet horizontally away!
If you check my Big Wall Checklist, you can see listed all the stuff I use.
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bspisak
Nov 12, 2003, 9:03 PM
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Yeah, the Better Way: one jug, one gri-gri; one backup knot.
The problem using two jugs and a backup, is the rope won't feed through the bottom jug until it gets some weight on it. PITA! That's why most people don't bother.
Backup Knots:
You can use a clove-hitch and feedit through as you go, but that's a pain and you end up with a big loop of rope. You can just untie and retie, but then you're without backup for a bit, eh?
I use a overhand-on-a-bight and just keep stacking them in a big biner every so often. This keeps the rope organized and an overhand is easier than an eight to tie. It also stacks closer together.
However: What do y'all think of the saftey of using an overhand-on-a-bight vs. a figure-eight-on-a-bight? I thought (and don't quote me on this) that the overhand was actually stronger, just more of a bugger to untie.
Brian
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ep
Nov 12, 2003, 9:09 PM
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In reply to: The problem using two jugs and a backup, is the rope won't feed through the bottom jug until it gets some weight on it. PITA! That's why most people don't bother.
If you use your thumb to disengage the cam on your ascender then it slides right on up.
In reply to: What do y'all think of the saftey of using an overhand-on-a-bight vs. a figure-eight-on-a-bight
An overhand is faster and just as good for saving your ass in that one in a million scenerio where you blow off both of your jugs.
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bspisak
Nov 13, 2003, 12:24 AM
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In reply to: If you use your thumb to disengage the cam on your ascender then it slides right on up.
Bingo, that's why I find it a PITA, IMHO. To each his own. Do whatever works for you.
Brian
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ep
Nov 13, 2003, 1:12 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: If you use your thumb to disengage the cam on your ascender then it slides right on up. Bingo, that's why I find it a PITA, IMHO. To each his own. Do whatever works for you.
That 1 cm movement of the thumb shouldn't cause your thumb to hurt, Brian, much less your ass. But as you say, do whatever works. I haven't tried the ascender-grigri-adjustable-fifi-designated-sling method yet, only read about it, so I can't fairly comment on its relative merits. I just find it surprising that the main advantage you cite is that it spares your thumb a few extra motions. I'd have guessed that releasing the tension around gear when cleaning traversing pitches would be the primary benefit.
By the way, did you get up a wall this autumn like you were hoping?
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passthepitonspete
Nov 13, 2003, 4:12 AM
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In reply to: "I haven't tried the ascender-grigri-adjustable-fifi-designated-sling method yet, only read about it..."
It is Dr. Piton's bold prediction that once you do, you will be sold for life after only ten metres.
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copperhead
Nov 13, 2003, 5:31 AM
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In reply to: It is Dr. Piton's bold prediction that once you do, you will be sold for life after only ten metres.
Dude, honestly, I tried the adjustable fifi deal this summer, per your recommendation (yes, I do listen). Well, after a good attempt to welcome the device into my aid system, I was about to chuck the stupid thing from the Falls Wall. Klaus laughed. Yeah, maybe the cord could have been a little more supple/softer but even so, it is a pain in the ass. I will stick to my archaic system that still blows the doors off of this new jive. Live and learn.
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passthepitonspete
Nov 13, 2003, 5:34 AM
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Geeeeeeezzz....
I said "adjustable daisy" not "adjustable fifi"....
The fifi is not for everyone, and it sure as hell sucks the big one if the cord ain't slippery enough.
What did you and Klaus do? Dirk Diggler told me he saw yous up there. Did Klaus tell you about the day in the Meadows when we killed three bottles of buddy's cabernet? [$23.99 a case - made from surplus grapes, he said]
Bottle's getting empty, hottie is on the IM, life is grand....
[Laughing my ass off, dude, at the thought of you up there, with your sticky adjustable fifi, showing Klaus the "Better Way", and him laughing his ass off at your "BWT"! Oh my gosh, there are tears in my eyes I'm laughing so hard!]
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copperhead
Nov 13, 2003, 5:40 AM
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In reply to: Did he tell you about the day in the Meadows when we killed three bottles of buddy's cabernet? [$23.99 a case - made from surplus grapes, he said]
Yes, and also of his (now famous) comment about how your mechanical advantage was somewhat of a mechanical disadvantage when you dropped your pig...
Just pitchin' you schist for fun. (even though it fuels the fire)
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bigwalling
Nov 13, 2003, 5:41 AM
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I rarely use the fifi. I too find it a pain! If I want to be in tight I just use a carabiner. In fact I have threw mine off a climb because it was catching on everything.
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copperhead
Nov 13, 2003, 5:46 AM
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I used a regular fifi years ago and stopped because it would fall out of the daisy loop.
The problem with the adjustable fifi is resetting it, not the adjustability of the cord when cinching in. I found it to be an extra step when I was already dialed with the old looped daisy setup. It was also an extra piece of jive that just got in the way. KISS.
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passthepitonspete
Nov 13, 2003, 5:55 AM
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A lot of experienced climbers agree with you on the KISS principal. On Reticent, one of my partners [Sean] loved it, the other [Chris] hated it. It becomes far easier to work once the cord is well worked in. Not all cords are created equal. [equally?] Is "created" a copula verb? Does anybody know? Does anybody care?
"Copula"? That's a funny word, eh? Heh heh.....
You don't need the adjustable daisy on easy aid, and on less-than-vertical stuff, but on overhanging hard stuff, where you need to fine-tune your topstepping, it ain't bad.
How many beers?
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