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rizzuh


Oct 12, 2003, 4:38 PM
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... is it possible
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So I hear you need to be able to lead at least 5.10 trad if you want to do big walls. This is hard for me to believe because I've met quite a few big wall climbers (doing A4's on el cap) that look like they can't lead over 5.7... definitely not 5.10. Plus, I lead only 5.7 trad but know how to place bomber gear. So is it possible to have fun on big walls if you're leading under 5.10, 5.9?

thanks for advice
rock on


bertman


Oct 12, 2003, 4:51 PM
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Whoever you heard that from is full of sh**.


climbhigh2005


Oct 12, 2003, 4:53 PM
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Dude all that's to confusing.. LOLsounds pretty wrong tho...


grog


Oct 12, 2003, 5:02 PM
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Yeah, bertmans right. Some wall can be aided the whole way, but others have mandatory free climbing sections (read: distgusting offwidths or slabs). So depending on the wall, free climbing grades can be irrelevant. I dont know who told you walls are fun though..... :wink:


ricardol


Oct 13, 2003, 10:32 AM
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haha ..

.. umm .. i free 5.8 .. and i just had "great fun" on my first big wall ..

.. it depends on the route .. on zodiac you can get away with only freeing up to 5.6 or 5.7 ..

. fun is a relative term -- what seemed like torture then .. i now remember like loads of fun -- so much i'm considering doing a 2nd solo this season.. :-)

-- ricardo


rcaret


Oct 13, 2003, 10:35 AM
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Bull S*** .


overlord


Oct 13, 2003, 10:40 AM
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that look like they can't lead over 5.7... definitely not 5.10

thats the point. i know a few older climber who dont look like they can even walk to the crag and they bag a 5.11d like it was flat.


wigglestick


Oct 13, 2003, 10:42 AM
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I lead only 5.7 trad but know how to place bomber gear. So is it possible to have fun on big walls if you're leading under 5.10, 5.9?

Can you lead 5.7 when you are dehydrated, hungry, sleep deprived, arms and legs cramping, suffering from heat exhaustion and/or hypothermia, in the dark, in approach shoes, with a 40 lb rack which you have been carrying for 3 days?

The mandatory free sections on walls usually have pretty crappy/sparse pro. That is why they are mandatory free. If they had easy and plentiful gear you could aid it. Yes, it is possible to climb a wall and only be able to free climb 5.7 but your options are much more plentiful the harder you can climb.


mother_sheep


Oct 13, 2003, 10:46 AM
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I think it definitely helps to be a strong/competent free climber. I don't have a lot of aid experience but during a climb that I was trying to lead, it wasn't the aid moves that were giving me trouble. It was committing to the free moves between placements that were freaking me out. It's a different world when your trying to make free moves in your boots/tennies with gear all over the place, getting in the way.


ricardol


Oct 13, 2003, 12:35 PM
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i gotta agree with that ..

the scariest part on a wall for me is busting out free moves .. (speically while soloing, since feeding out slack during the moves is a PITA, i feed out the slack ahead of the moves)..


t-dog
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Oct 13, 2003, 1:01 PM
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In reply to:
I've met quite a few big wall climbers (doing A4's on el cap) that look like they can't lead over 5.7... definitely not 5.10.
Be careful of people that look big/out of shape cause crack climbing is all about learning skills, and once you have them you're body can go to shit, you'll still be able to lead as long as you still have the technique.
BTW I bow down to older more out of shape trad climbers that can kick my ass anyday.


atg200


Oct 13, 2003, 7:09 PM
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tracy - quit wearing tennis shoes and wear climbing shoes when you need to transition. i find i climb a lot faster when i wear climbing shoes anyway.

i free 5.8 pretty solidly and 5.7 under wigglestick conditions, and i have fun on walls. being able to suffer is more important than being a good free climber.


maculated


Oct 13, 2003, 7:28 PM
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Yup, I agree with ATG, I have some uber comfy trad shoes that work well on the small bits of aid I've done.


mrhardgrit


Oct 14, 2003, 9:05 AM
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You can definitely be a totally crap free climber and still be an ace aid climbing (although you might need a "Rope Gun" ... ask PTPP!).

If fact I think most of the aid climbers I know would be pushed to lead 5.10. On the other hand, I know some who lead 5.13+


ricardol


Oct 14, 2003, 9:21 AM
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In reply to:
Yup, I agree with ATG, I have some uber comfy trad shoes that work well on the small bits of aid I've done.

.. for small bits maybe .. but after 7 days on a wall, spending 14 hrs a day on aiders .. i was more than happy to have had nice stiff soled boots .. never had any foot fatigue ...

.. the boots sucked on the rock .. but i managed to free up to 5.7 ... found out that the quality of the shoe is also a mental game ..

-- ricardo


dingus


Oct 14, 2003, 9:27 AM
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It isn't that you NEED 5.10 leading skills. Its that you will WANT them.

What's scarier... bouncing testing a mank copperhead... or busting out the 5.8 and 5.9 moves in the Stovelegs?

If you really are a 5.7 leader you will probably end up aiding sections like the Stovelegs. I guess there is no shame in it (as I have done it too!). But I suspect you will have more fun if you free those pitches like they were meant to be freed. So you're either SLOWLY leap frogging cams (which is plenty scary business all by itself), or your cranking the moves like a god.

Go the god route.

You don't have to wait till you develop 5.10 lead skills. But your wall climbing head will be far more solid if you do.

Walls are freaking A scary... in a dozen deep ways that cannot be experienced until you are there. Why add in the fear of your own incompetence?

DMT


iamthewallress


Oct 14, 2003, 11:30 AM
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Walls are freaking A scary... in a dozen deep ways that cannot be experienced until you are there. Why add in the fear of your own incompetence?

Not being able to climb 5.10 with grace will only make you "incompetant" on a wall with free climbing that approaches that level of difficulty.


dingus


Oct 14, 2003, 11:38 AM
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Walls are freaking A scary... in a dozen deep ways that cannot be experienced until you are there. Why add in the fear of your own incompetence?

Not being able to climb 5.10 with grace will only make you "incompetant" on a wall with free climbing that approaches that level of difficulty.

If you say so chief. You have far more experience in the matter than I.

DMT


mother_sheep


Oct 14, 2003, 12:23 PM
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tracy - quit wearing tennis shoes and wear climbing shoes when you need to transition. i find i climb a lot faster when i wear climbing shoes anyway.

i free 5.8 pretty solidly and 5.7 under wigglestick conditions, and i have fun on walls. being able to suffer is more important than being a good free climber.

Of course I'd climb faster in climbing shoes. It seems pointless to transition into climbing shoes though for free moves in between placements when we're only talking about short sections. My point is that if I was a stronger free leader, I don't think I would have been as sketched making the free moves, regardless of my footwear.


iamthewallress


Oct 14, 2003, 12:33 PM
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Walls are freaking A scary... in a dozen deep ways that cannot be experienced until you are there. Why add in the fear of your own incompetence?

Not being able to climb 5.10 with grace will only make you "incompetant" on a wall with free climbing that approaches that level of difficulty.

If you say so chief. You have far more experience in the matter than I.

DMT

I guess you've always been able to climb 5.10 so you wouldn't know about this one. As always, I'm impressed.


dingus


Oct 14, 2003, 12:53 PM
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I guess you've always been able to climb 5.10 so you wouldn't know about this one. As always, I'm impressed.

Guess? Guess what? I led my first 5.10 about, um, 25 years ago. I did my first wall maybe 10 or 12 years ago.

Most 5.7 leaders are not going to be able to climb a wall without help. A lot of help. That's a fact.

DMT


iamthewallress


Oct 14, 2003, 1:21 PM
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I guess you've always been able to climb 5.10 so you wouldn't know about this one. As always, I'm impressed.

Guess? Guess what? I led my first 5.10 about, um, 25 years ago. I did my first wall maybe 10 or 12 years ago.

Most 5.7 leaders are not going to be able to climb a wall without help. A lot of help. That's a fact.

You are such a hardman that just reading about how wonderful you climb and how long you've been climbing that hard is leaving me all panting and breathless as I type. I know that you never had to learn a thing from anyone and you'd rather dive off the face of the cliff than turn over a lead. I only only hope to be blessed with children some day so that I can name them after you in hopes that they will lead as beautiful of a life as you have. You are an inspiration.

That said, I agree that most 5.7 leaders would not get up a wall without help. I never said otherwise. (Although can you imagine the audacity of a 5.7 leader to accept help from someone to learn about aid and wall climbing?! :shock:) In fact, I think most 5.10 climbers who've never climbed a wall will not get up one on their first try with out help either.

The incomepance that you were referring to, as I read it, dealt with the free sections. If you are a 5.9 climber, you may be incompetant on every other part of the route, but the 5.6-5.8 face sections on trade routes that are probably climbed by hundreds of first timers yearly, many if not most of whom can't climb 5.10 solidly, are probably not going to be the show stoppers.

But since you can't fathom what it is to be a sub-5.10 climber, I guess you have to take my word for it as a 5.8 climber that with some practice walls can be climbed without "help", and they can be fun too. Or take Ricardo's word. He's the current posterchild for the perseverence factor.


ricardol


Oct 14, 2003, 1:42 PM
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Most 5.7 leaders are not going to be able to climb a wall without help. A lot of help. That's a fact.

DMT

ahem! -- i soloed my first wall .. and i'm a 5.8 leader with 11 months of experience .. and limited help (though pete did build a 2:1 and helped with some other stuff.. but he never helped once i was ON the wall)..

.. my point .. is that there are no rules for climbing .. and in big walls .. (up to say A2 or C3, that go with mandatory free at 5.7) .. its about commitment and heart .. rather than skill or experience..

-- ricardo


dingus


Oct 14, 2003, 2:02 PM
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(snip stalker love-talk)
That said, I agree that most 5.7 leaders would not get up a wall without help. I never said otherwise.

Phew! Stop right there! All that angst just to admit I'm right. Again.

In reply to:
The incomepance that you were referring to, as I read it, dealt with the free sections.

Stop right there Karnac. You read it wrong. Let's just requote it so we're clear:

In reply to:
It isn't that you NEED 5.10 leading skills. Its that you will WANT them.

(snip unrelated parts)

You don't have to wait till you develop 5.10 lead skills. But your wall climbing head will be far more solid if you do.

Walls are freaking A scary... in a dozen deep ways that cannot be experienced until you are there. Why add in the fear of your own incompetence?

I spoke of a fear of incompetence, wall climbing head. If you weren't so caught up in taking personal offense you might have understood that.

In reply to:
But since you can't fathom what it is to be a sub-5.10 climber,

That is hard to fathom I must admit. Do they even make them anymore?

DMT


passthepitonspete


Nov 12, 2003, 11:21 AM
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I retired from free climbing some time ago, and still manage to wobble up the occasional wall. On the harder stuff I have brought a Rope Gun, but I've also had a few exciting solo episodes, like on Iron Hawk. That little bit of "5.7" a couple weeks ago at the bottom of 6 on the Leaning Tower was a sandbag if ever I climbed one.

Note: There have been a few times when I have had to temporarily come out of Free Climbing Retirement. This spring on Lost In America was one of those times. I'd have asked my partner to lead that pitch, but he's pretty crabby.....

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