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tendertendons
Oct 15, 2003, 4:32 PM
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So we finally decided where we're going this year. Agawa Canyon to do some Grade 3 - Grade 4 ice for 2 weeks. My question is should we invest in zippers for ice pro if we anticipate only placing 16 cm screws in bomber ice? Seems like Agawa Canyon is far enough north that in February you don't have to worry too much about the sun rotting out the ice (thick flow + cold daytime temps). Craig Luebben isn't a big fan of zippers so I'm not sure if it would be a worthy investment (for what we have planned).
TIA.
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brianthew
Oct 15, 2003, 4:34 PM
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Perhaps you mean Screamers? I read the topic and thought, hmm...a zipper (fall) on ice pro....a definate nay....
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rendog
Oct 15, 2003, 10:38 PM
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i think it's a matter of personal choice really.
I have a few that I use whenever the pro isn't all that great or on a stubby screw. i like 'em and so do quite a few other climbers that i discussed this with.
it dosen't hurt to have 'em is all I can say
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brianinslc
Oct 15, 2003, 10:52 PM
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In reply to: My question is should we invest in zippers for ice pro if we anticipate only placing 16 cm screws in bomber ice?
I like 'em on every screw but I'm not hoping to find out if they work anytime soon...
Brian in SLC
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Deleted
Oct 16, 2003, 3:50 AM
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[i:30308aee94]especially[/i:30308aee94] on ice, "the leader must not fall" must be your mantra.
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pico23
Oct 16, 2003, 4:24 AM
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In reply to: So we finally decided where we're going this year. Agawa Canyon to do some Grade 3 - Grade 4 ice for 2 weeks. My question is should we invest in zippers for ice pro if we anticipate only placing 16 cm screws in bomber ice? Seems like Agawa Canyon is far enough north that in February you don't have to worry too much about the sun rotting out the ice (thick flow + cold daytime temps). Craig Luebben isn't a big fan of zippers so I'm not sure if it would be a worthy investment (for what we have planned). TIA.
I'm assuming we are talking about standard screamers here? Ya, I place them on most screws. I figure every little bit helps if I do fall. Otherwise, why even bother placing the screws in the first place? Buy the screamers and place them early in the pitch when the fall factor is highest. Save one or two for rotten ice as well.
Your trip sounds like a blast.
Where is Agawa Canyon?
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tendertendons
Oct 16, 2003, 12:04 PM
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In reply to: Where is Agawa Canyon?
Agawa Canyon is on Lake Superior between Sault Ste. Marie and Hearst. You have to take the Algoma Rail Snow Train up there but the beauty of the trip is the train drops you off right at base camp and the climbs are all concentrated in a 2 mile radius of base. No avalanche hazard and up to 200 meters of ice. Should be fun.
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crag
Oct 16, 2003, 12:38 PM
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I hate when my zippers freeze up in the winter and I can't get my pants down for this very reason I prefer buttons.
On the topic of screamers, like pico said, "early and often" to help reduce fall factor. But we all know, even with all the new fangled gear and techniques we ice climbers still don't fall, RIGHT?
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joegoesup
Oct 16, 2003, 12:59 PM
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Zippers on the first 3 screws and and dicey placements or tie offs. Enjoy your trip and bring a warm sleeping bag, I spent some chilli nights there when I went a few years back. Another great spot further up the way is orient bay. Lots of great ice with many of the routes only a few hundred meters off the road.
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rendog
Oct 16, 2003, 5:22 PM
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In reply to: But we all know, even with all the new fangled gear and techniques we ice climbers still don't fall, RIGHT?
riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight
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mountrobson
Oct 27, 2003, 6:32 AM
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crag wrote:
But we all know, even with all the new fangled gear and techniques we ice climbers still don't fall, RIGHT?
OK, I'm stupid enuf to admit I've fallen on ice. Once. 'Bout a 30-footer in Frankenstein last Feb. Never thought it'd happen, but it did! Had a CM zipper on a deep 17cm screw -- worked like a charm! Haven't sunk a screw without one since. 'Course, there's really no reason to -- I ain't gonna fall again, right?!
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fear
Oct 27, 2003, 6:47 AM
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In reply to: So we finally decided where we're going this year. Agawa Canyon to do some Grade 3 - Grade 4 ice for 2 weeks. My question is should we invest in zippers for ice pro if we anticipate only placing 16 cm screws in bomber ice? Seems like Agawa Canyon is far enough north that in February you don't have to worry too much about the sun rotting out the ice (thick flow + cold daytime temps). Craig Luebben isn't a big fan of zippers so I'm not sure if it would be a worthy investment (for what we have planned). TIA.
I like the part about it all being "bomber ice".... lol.....
But yeah, get the zippers. At least scream the first three or so placements off the belay. Keep at least one more for unexpected "bomber ice" above and one for the next belay.
Think of using doubles too to keep your impact forces low on your "bomber" placements....
Don't trust ice until you've spent years and years climbing it. Then you'll know you can't always trust it. Don't poo-poo grade 3 or 4 ice just 'cause someone solos M10 in a magazine. Some of the scariest stuff I've ever been on was Grade 2+ to 3 steep slabs with oodles of hydraulic dams behind random bulges.
-Fear
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the_climber
Oct 27, 2003, 7:56 AM
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Like the others are saying... Screem on the first few, and off the belay. Save a couple for later for that "bomb-proof" choss that Murfy's law states you will find (damn Murfy and his laws). Double your ropes up, pollish your brass balls, and climb safe.
Bad ice can be found in any temperature. "Bad" is not limited to sun rot, and water behind the ice, it also includes brittle ice. Dry ice can become very brittle given the right situation and can shear of in massive deep dinner plates. I've seen some big ice come down on cold days. And man trust me big plates hurt. I met a guy last season who took a 30footer because of one that extended for 2 feet below his tool placment and basicly pushed him off his placements. (this obviously isnt the ussual,but ice can be unpridictable)
So, Screemers are good, Ice isn't always bomber (sometimes even when thick), and Murfy sucks.
Anyways, Climb safe, have fun, and Crank Hard
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jbrd528
Oct 29, 2003, 4:23 AM
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Are you sure that 16 screws will be enough? I would think about getting more!. All so, you might want to get 17 screamers incase you drop one!!!!!
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slobmonster
Nov 11, 2003, 7:39 PM
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Yay. Definitely.
If a screw is in solid blue ice, and spins in with a modest amount of difficulty, it's probably bomber. Save your screamers for shorties and placements in crappier ice, in which turning in the screw is strangely easy, or fractures some of the surface. Since the protection is difficult to get in the first place, you might as well stack the odds in your favor by having four or more screamers with you.
Personal experience: ripped two screamers in one fall, last winter. The top screw pulled out (I knew it was in junk, but it was the best I could get).
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