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moabbeth


Oct 20, 2003, 8:19 PM
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third and fourth aiders
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I'm still learning aid, but goddamn it's fun so far. I was wondering how many of you use third and/or fourth aiders while climbing. Over the past week I was climbing with my ladders together and a set of etriers on the other side and it really made a difference, especially on lead. First time I'd done it that way and it made a good difference.

I have the Yates wall ladders, I guess they make a speed ladder of the same dimensions to compliment it to use as 3rd/4th aiders to the ladders. Anyone use this combo? Does it work better than with etriers?


Partner euroford


Oct 21, 2003, 12:58 PM
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i use four yates wall ladders. two with blue trim and two with red trim. the ladders are attached to two yates adjustable daisy's, again in red and blue. i have the aiders and daisy's attached to each other using corrisponding black diamond enduro locking biners, one with a blue screwgate and one with red.

helps keep the clusterfruk managed a bit better.


atg200


Oct 21, 2003, 1:52 PM
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ladder style vs alternating step style is largely a matter of personal preference. i climb just fine with either, and using 2, 3, or 4 aiders in your system works identically with either style. right now i have the alternating step style, and when/if i replace them and if i don't go with russian aiders(haven't tried them yet) i will likely get ladders instead.

in any event, most of the people i know and climb with use 4 aiders. it is the system i prefer, and it is the easiest to learn for basic movement. the main disadvantage seems to be that there is an awful lot of crap hanging off of you.

on the other hand, i know some people who use either 2 or 3 aiders and they all move faster than i do. i can't imagine doing hard aid with lots of bounce testing with less than 4 aiders, and my attempts at this system have been slow - probably because i am not doing it correctly.


bigwalling


Oct 21, 2003, 2:18 PM
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I've used two aider system and the 4 aider system a fair amount. I can move pretty fast in the 2 aiders on eisier stuff. I wouldn't want to do hard stuff without at least 3 though. This all goes for the ladders too, they are way easier to use as 2 than with other aiders of only 2. Just do what works best for you.


ricardol


Oct 21, 2003, 2:57 PM
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in the mtn store (curry village) they have these keylock oval carabiners that have notches on the gate ..

... these turned out to be very useful .. i clipped my set of aiders to the keylock biners (and the attached an adj daisy w/locker) .. while not using the aiders i would put them behind my back, it was then easy to find them again by feeling the gates of the biners on the back of my harness .. (all sorts of stuff goes there -- ascenders, pulleys, cheatsticks, etc) ..

.. on less than vertical, 2 ascenders worked fine .. (A2 mind you) .. on steep stuff and overhung, i think it would have been alot of work to do 2 aiders for me .. i was happy to have 2 sets of 2. (yates ladders)

-- ricardo


iamthewallress


Oct 21, 2003, 3:02 PM
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If you have to get high in your steps when its really steep 4 are better, IMO too. However, if you don't really need 4, they can end up creating a lot of macrame...especially when it's windy or traversing.

Glad you're out there getting in some leads!


flamer


Oct 21, 2003, 3:22 PM
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Having tried several different configurations, I've settled on the 3 aider system. I currently use etrier's but plan to use either russian style(if FISH would ever get it together!!) or ladders in the future. This system is tremendously faster!!! Leading steep stuff is no NBD that'e why you have a 3rd or "floating" aider- clip it on just like a fourth and stand up proud!
I use Petzel attach's on my aider/daisy comb...the key lock makes for easy clip's/unclip's.
The main thing is to figure out what works best for you the stick with it!! Not everything works well for everybody. Figure out what you like then get efficient with it and don't worry to much about what everybody else does.
and oh yeah...HAVE FUN!!!
josh


cjain


Oct 21, 2003, 4:14 PM
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i use four yates wall ladders. two with blue trim and two with red trim. the ladders are attached to two yates adjustable daisy's, again in red and blue. i have the aiders and daisy's attached to each other using corrisponding black diamond enduro locking biners, one with a blue screwgate and one with red.

helps keep the clusterfruk managed a bit better.

This is the exact same system that I've been using, (well except for the colored biners--although that doesn't sound like a bad idea).

Chris


lambone


Oct 21, 2003, 9:19 PM
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i have the aiders and daisy's attached to each other using corrisponding black diamond enduro locking biners, one with a blue screwgate and one with red.

.

Use autolocking biners, that way you can leave cams on your biners while backcleaning and not worry about dropping them. Plus, you won' t want to unscrew the biner for every move...only PTPPwould do something like that.


flamer


Oct 21, 2003, 9:32 PM
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i have the aiders and daisy's attached to each other using corrisponding black diamond enduro locking biners, one with a blue screwgate and one with red.

.

Use autolocking biners, that way you can leave cams on your biners while backcleaning and not worry about dropping them. Plus, you won' t want to unscrew the biner for every move...only PTPPwould do something like that.

You mean you actually lock your biner's???what the ????
I only lock them for ascending or belays...
josh


moabbeth


Oct 21, 2003, 9:41 PM
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If you have to get high in your steps when its really steep 4 are better, IMO too. However, if you don't really need 4, they can end up creating a lot of macrame...especially when it's windy or traversing.

Glad you're out there getting in some leads!

Hehehe....I owe MAD props to Andrew, he is so supportive and knowlegable, I couldn't ask for a better aid teacher. He had me try the 4 aiders setup leading last week, it made a big difference for me. Especially when I had to get on the highest steps (there were some . On bolt ladders where they were spaced way far apart, it was great. When I had to switch to placing pro though they did get a little jumbled - especially in crack system - but managing the stuff is something I'll get dialed the more I do it.


lambone


Oct 22, 2003, 12:25 PM
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i have the aiders and daisy's attached to each other using corrisponding black diamond enduro locking biners, one with a blue screwgate and one with red.

.

Use autolocking biners, that way you can leave cams on your biners while backcleaning and not worry about dropping them. Plus, you won' t want to unscrew the biner for every move...only PTPPwould do something like that.

You mean you actually lock your biner's???what the ????
I only lock them for ascending or belays...
josh

They lock themselves...automaticaly. I back clean as much as possible, and to save time I keep the size cams I need on the biner. I used to do this with regular biners, until I dropped an Offset Alien, and lost a couple of aiders. Now I allways use autolockers.

It only takes a half a second to poen the biner, and it closes by itself. I have never dropped a piece off my dasies/aiders since. Although at frist my thumb was alot more sore from opening the biner all day. Try it, I bet you'll like it. With two sets of offset aliens you can just fly up stuff...and not fuss with the rack so much. Use regular biners and you are bound to lose a cam sooner or later.


Partner euroford


Oct 22, 2003, 1:11 PM
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I totally agree, i wish they were autolocking biners. i just havn't happened upon a pair of autolocks that i like for this application. the enduro's are small and light, all of my autolockers are super huge HMS type's that i find to clunky for this application.

does anybody know of a small/light autolocker that they like for this application? it doesn't need to be color coded, but given the option i prefer that.

most lockers within my climbing systems have specific "jobs", colors are certainly the best way to keep this sussed out. has anybody else noticed that BD is starting to carry lots of diffrent colors in there biners??


potreroed


Oct 22, 2003, 1:27 PM
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I do a lot of first ascents on aid and find a third aider to be really helpful but have never felt the need for a fourth.


flamer


Oct 22, 2003, 2:46 PM
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i have the aiders and daisy's attached to each other using corrisponding black diamond enduro locking biners, one with a blue screwgate and one with red.

.

Use autolocking biners, that way you can leave cams on your biners while backcleaning and not worry about dropping them. Plus, you won' t want to unscrew the biner for every move...only PTPPwould do something like that.

You mean you actually lock your biner's???what the ????
I only lock them for ascending or belays...
josh

They lock themselves...automaticaly. I back clean as much as possible, and to save time I keep the size cams I need on the biner. I used to do this with regular biners, until I dropped an Offset Alien, and lost a couple of aiders. Now I allways use autolockers.

It only takes a half a second to poen the biner, and it closes by itself. I have never dropped a piece off my dasies/aiders since. Although at frist my thumb was alot more sore from opening the biner all day. Try it, I bet you'll like it. With two sets of offset aliens you can just fly up stuff...and not fuss with the rack so much. Use regular biners and you are bound to lose a cam sooner or later.

Wait you mean you don't put every peice back on the rack after you use it??Or leave/clip it?? WHOA>>>cutting edge!!!
:lol:
I've got to disagree with you here. Locking every piece everytime(regardless as to it being an autolocker or not) is an udder waste of time.
I've lead plenty of aid pitch's and leapfrogged plenty. I've never had problems dropping gear. In fact I've done plenty of it on standard ovals and not had a problem.
Everytime you add any little step to the system it takes more time and add's to the cluster.
But hey you climb your way I'll climb mine....
HAVE FUN!!!
josh


lambone


Oct 22, 2003, 8:04 PM
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I totally agree, i wish they were autolocking biners. i just havn't happened upon a pair of autolocks that i like for this application.

Yeah, there arn't many designed for this. I actually like the bigger ones better, because you can load more cams on it, and it's easier to open the gate. I use a large pear shaped DMM locker.

I've been waiting for a couple of years now to see a Key nose like a Petzl Spirit come in an Autolock. Petzl has one, but it has this saftey catch that you need to slide up before it will open, it is a pain.

If anyone knows of one I'd be interested...


lambone


Oct 22, 2003, 8:13 PM
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Wait you mean you don't put every peice back on the rack after you use it??Or leave/clip it?? WHOA>>>cutting edge!!!
:lol:
I've got to disagree with you here. Locking every piece everytime(regardless as to it being an autolocker or not) is an udder waste of time.
I've lead plenty of aid pitch's and leapfrogged plenty. I've never had problems dropping gear. In fact I've done plenty of it on standard ovals and not had a problem.
Everytime you add any little step to the system it takes more time and add's to the cluster.

josh

What ever dude, try the system before you slam it. It doesn't add any extra time or work. You use your thumb to open any biner, with an auto-lock you add a little twist to the motion....you are talking fractions of a second here...

So maybe you've never dropped any gear in your vast experience...but someday your favorite cam is going to unclip itself from your dasiy biner while you are yarding your aiders through the fustercluck...and you will say, damn...Lambone was right.

I save alot more time with locking biners because I don't need to be caeful when I drop my aiders down, or pull them back up. And I can have 4-5 cams on at once, no sweat.

Maybe you thought I came off as condescending to you, but not everyone on this board has the extensive aid climbing experience that you do, i like to explain things in detail, not just what I do, but why. So take your sarcasm back to PTPP's threads.


flamer


Oct 22, 2003, 8:22 PM
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Whoa don't get all reached buddy...
I noticed you left out what I said at the end of my statement...
You climb your way and I'll climb mine....
HAVE FUN!!!
The thing is people need to see more than one way, my friend.
Sarcasm just makes things more fun!! Feel free to poke holes in me!!
josh


pico23


Oct 22, 2003, 11:23 PM
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I'm still learning aid, but goddamn it's fun so far. I was wondering how many of you use third and/or fourth aiders while climbing. Over the past week I was climbing with my ladders together and a set of etriers on the other side and it really made a difference, especially on lead. First time I'd done it that way and it made a good difference.

I have the Yates wall ladders, I guess they make a speed ladder of the same dimensions to compliment it to use as 3rd/4th aiders to the ladders. Anyone use this combo? Does it work better than with etriers?

So far I've only used the two aider two daisy method. I got 2 more Yates ladders so I can practice 3-4 aider method as well. Thinking about it it would seem three aiders is the most useful. But like you I'll be figuring it out for myself.

Ladders or etriers seems to be preference.


epic_ed


Oct 22, 2003, 11:55 PM
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Good input, guys. I don't think he was slamming you, Boney. Just hard to pick up someone's tone in a message sometimes.

It's time for me to start messing with my systems to see where and how I can pick up speed and I think I'm going to go with one aider-per-daisey set up, with one aider floating. I have been using two sets of ladders and it's comfy and convenient, but I think I need to get out of my comfort zone a little. Might force me to move a little faster. :wink:

Ed


Partner euroford


Oct 23, 2003, 6:52 AM
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I totally agree, i wish they were autolocking biners. i just havn't happened upon a pair of autolocks that i like for this application.

Yeah, there arn't many designed for this. I actually like the bigger ones better, because you can load more cams on it, and it's easier to open the gate. I use a large pear shaped DMM locker.

I've been waiting for a couple of years now to see a Key nose like a Petzl Spirit come in an Autolock. Petzl has one, but it has this saftey catch that you need to slide up before it will open, it is a pain.

If anyone knows of one I'd be interested...

yeah, ain't it crazy that with all the billion biner variations out there us nitpickers find something we arn't happy with.

hello... small, lightweight autolocking biner with a key nose please....

and whats up with petzl? they have about 4 diffrent autolock idea's and they all suck. the standard twist and open style rules though, no excuse (except availability) not to use it, its a zero fustercuk operation which adds tons of safety/reliability.


lambone


Oct 23, 2003, 10:54 AM
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Good input, guys. I don't think he was slamming you, Boney.
Ed

That's Lammy to you buddy :twisted:

Thre aiders with one floating works good. The only thing I don't like about this is that the your aideres are uneven, because the third is clipped into the biner of the main one clipped to the piece, make sanse...?


moof


Oct 31, 2003, 9:42 PM
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If anyone knows of one I'd be interested...

Yates claims to have two key gate, twist lock monsters:

http://www.yatesgear.com/climbing/hardware/yatesisc.htm


Partner euroford


Nov 4, 2003, 7:43 PM
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If anyone knows of one I'd be interested...

Yates claims to have two key gate, twist lock monsters:

http://www.yatesgear.com/climbing/hardware/yatesisc.htm

ya know what, yates is the $hit! i'll have to hook up on a couple of those gecko's when i order my wall ropes in a couple weeks. can't wait to get those, i'm ordering two of the 11mmx200m ropes for roped access work and one of the 11mmx65m for non-urban work :)


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