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xcire


Oct 22, 2003, 5:08 PM
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A question for all trad climbers
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Being that I am pretty new to this sport I have a few questions. Does climbing a route that has been bolted really affect you? I have done some searches on this and I came up empty. All I could find was people complaining that it tears up nature like trampling trough trails to get to our favorite climbing spot doesn't. I just want to know if these bolts(which i look at as the step between gym climbing and trad) are really that bad. Im not saying that everyone should just run out and start bolting but if you find a new route and love it so much you want to try and protect it wouldnt you want us who choose to sport climb for, whatever reason, to see it to? If you have nothing constructive to say go bash on another thread. I am trully trying to see something from someone elses point of view.


ricardol


Oct 22, 2003, 5:14 PM
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in my mind -- bolting is fine as long as there are no trad placements that could be made instead ..

.. a bolt next to a crack is lame ..

there are exceptions to that rule .. (ie: bad rock, etc)

-- ricardo


xcire


Oct 22, 2003, 5:19 PM
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Where my question is what about us who can not set trad yet I would like that bolt next to a crack so i can climb it also. Is this wrong?


curt


Oct 22, 2003, 5:26 PM
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In reply to:
Where my question is what about us who can not set trad yet I would like that bolt next to a crack so i can climb it also. Is this wrong?

Yes. That is absolutely wrong.

Curt


ropeburn


Oct 22, 2003, 5:29 PM
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In reply to:
Where my question is what about us who can not set trad yet I would like that bolt next to a crack so i can climb it also. Is this wrong?

Yes.

Think about it, the crack you are lusting over was probably FA'd on trad gear before any gyms were opened. So just find someone around you that climbs trad, buy them lots of beer, second them up everything you can, and finally sack up and start leading easy trad. Don't fall into the "well I started in the gym so I can't lead trad until I can onsight sport .12's" mindset. Just start easy and work up. Post a picture or a TR of the climb after you send it.

:mrgreen:


mike_hunt


Oct 22, 2003, 5:37 PM
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Being that I am pretty new to this sport I have a few questions. Does climbing a route that has been bolted really affect you?

Not quite as much of an effect as climbing a route where route finding is more of a challenge than connecting the dots, and having to use experience to find gear placements.


mike_hunt


Oct 22, 2003, 5:38 PM
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Im not saying that everyone should just run out and start bolting but if you find a new route and love it so much you want to try and protect it wouldnt you want us who choose to sport climb for, whatever reason, to see it to?

When I figure out what the actual question is here, I will try to answer.....


rizzuh


Oct 22, 2003, 5:49 PM
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xcire... i often find myself in the same situation... since i only lead 5.7 trad. Yeah, i guess it'd be wrong to bolt up the tougher trad lines so it'd be easier to lead... but this is why i'm getting into aid climbing. As an aid climber i'll be able to race up any 5.14... no problems.


flamer


Oct 22, 2003, 5:58 PM
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In reply to:
xcire... i often find myself in the same situation... since i only lead 5.7 trad. Yeah, i guess it'd be wrong to bolt up the tougher trad lines so it'd be easier to lead... but this is why i'm getting into aid climbing. As an aid climber i'll be able to race up any 5.14... no problems.

What if it's 5.14X???
And if you think you're going to be "racing" anywhere aid climbing, then you haven't done much aid climbing!!!
josh


ricardol


Oct 22, 2003, 6:08 PM
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Where my question is what about us who can not set trad yet I would like that bolt next to a crack so i can climb it also. Is this wrong?

.. yes --

if you want to climb a route that requires trad gear . then learn ..

-- ricardo


thurgood


Oct 22, 2003, 6:09 PM
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bolts are bad, blah blah blah, i climb trad so im a real man. it seems like this is all i ever here from this message board. how can anyone make a blanket statement that bolting next to a crack is wrong. absolutely wrong even. lighten up. as long people get the proper authorization it doesn't matter if the fa was done on trad with no chalk and no sticky rubber. i feel confident using my mad rock fingers that im having a good time. share the rock. i think they shoud build a ladder up most climbs jst so it easier to take pictures of climbers. this was supposed to be a serioius post, but I sort of lost interest in making sense.


flagstaff_climber


Oct 22, 2003, 6:14 PM
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Why should climbs be altered just so you, or anybody else can climb them ? If you want to climb crack then learn trad.

And if you wanna learn some trad drop me a pm I would be happy to let you second on some crack climbs, it is a great way to learn.

Rick


soccer_fan


Oct 22, 2003, 6:18 PM
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Some bolted routes were originally trad routes that have been retro bolted, and still can be let as a trad route. Graneted this takes most of route-finding out of the equation, but you can lead it how you like. I personally don't think that cracks should be bolted unless for top-anchors. Speaking of top-anchors, what is the typical ethic for those?

Note: I don't plan on bolting anything, just wondering...


mike_hunt


Oct 22, 2003, 6:20 PM
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In reply to:
Why should climbs be altered just so you, or anybody else can climb them ? If you want to climb crack then learn trad.

And if you wanna learn some trad drop me a pm I would be happy to let you second on some crack climbs, it is a great way to learn.

Rick

hey flagstaff_climber, how's the weather over there at the Forks these days? Any chance you wanna meet up with a Las Vegan and show off some routes? I seen those pics of you sending that sh*t!!


savedbymynuts


Oct 22, 2003, 6:23 PM
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Where my question is what about us who can not set trad yet I would like that bolt next to a crack so i can climb it also. Is this wrong?
Why not TR nothing wrong with TR. When you feel really confident with the route then learn on that rout to place protections.

The only time I feel it is ok to bolt beside a crack is when the area a known sport crag. Most of the climbing community in that area do not bring trad gear to climb at that crag.


corpse


Oct 22, 2003, 6:39 PM
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Here's my take on it.
I'm a "new" climber... I have climbed in the gym a couple years, and got into trad this summer. I never once considered sport climbing - I don't have that physique to hammer up a hard climb yet, but I do have the brains and determination and sense of adventure - trad all the way! I'm not a real strong climber, perhaps my hardest redpoint is like a 10a,
Why I trad...
I enjoy the problem solving..
I like being responsible for my own safety..
I like to listen to the jingle of my nuts as I climb..
I feel I am always going to learn something cool - not necessarily technique in climbing, but in gear placement, anchor setup, whatever..

I'm not a major outdoorsie person, but I think bolting by a crack is also generally wrong. As others have said, I can see some viable cases. I also don't care about ppl sinking some bolts in. It would take us humans at least a thousand years to make a BIG IMPACT to the rock formations, and in that amount of time, if we are still on this planet, then those areas will be built with 100 story condo's. And by then, they will be artifacts, like finding fossils today :-) If you can bolt an x rated 10a trad climb cuz the protection really stink, then put bolts in a few places to make it safe.


orangekyak


Oct 22, 2003, 6:59 PM
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Doctor: Nurse, get me 500 cc's of old school, STAT!

Nurse: But Doctor, the old school are tired of repeating themselves! Why are n00bs so fekkin insensitive?

Doctor: We must not give up hope! We're seeing more and more cases of this! As long as those crack(less) dens (aka climbing gyms) keep churning out n00bs we must bring them into the fold one at a time ...

Nurse: But doctor, the ethics in this thread have completely flatlined ______


xcire


Oct 22, 2003, 7:26 PM
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In reply to:
In reply to:
Where my question is what about us who can not set trad yet I would like that bolt next to a crack so i can climb it also. Is this wrong?

.. yes --

if you want to climb a route that requires trad gear . then learn ..

-- ricardo
I just want to know what makes people think they have the right to keep someone from bolting a route. Just cause it was first done by someone (in my mind) doesnt give them anymore say than anyone else. Not to take anything away from them but there is alot of rock out there whats the big deal. Im not trying to start anything I just want to know if there is a real reason other than the whole trad mentality that they have the right to keep stuff from being bolted, keep in mind i do plan to climb trad one day


sharpender


Oct 22, 2003, 7:45 PM
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Adrenline Junkie Wrote:
In reply to:
If you can bolt an x rated 10a trad climb cuz the protection really stink, then put bolts in a few places to make it safe.

Leave your hands off. Geez. From the rest of your post you need to grow up. Perhaps go back to school. Study, anthorpology, economics, environmentalism and just plain pay attention to the real world. By your post, Yosemite Valley is going to be elbow to earlobe with 100 story condos. If you can't learn to climb it the way the first ascent team did - and with todays gear yet - stay in the gym, or go play golf. Now there's environmental impact. :roll:


soma


Oct 22, 2003, 7:47 PM
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I just want to know what makes people think they have the right to keep someone from bolting a route. Just cause it was first done by someone (in my mind) doesnt give them anymore say than anyone else. Not to take anything away from them but there is alot of rock out there whats the big deal. Im not trying to start anything I just want to know if there is a real reason other than the whole trad mentality that they have the right to keep stuff from being bolted, keep in mind i do plan to climb trad one day

How about this then.. You go find your own crack. FA and bolt it.

I have only lead extreamly easy trad, which I could have soloed but I respect the tradition underlying trad routes and more so the balls (or the female equivalent) that is required for leading difficult trad routes.

I keep thinking your posts are trolls and if so, well done.

How will you "climb trad one day" if all the trad routes are bolted?


Dave


curt


Oct 22, 2003, 7:48 PM
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xcire,
In reply to:
I just want to know what makes people think they have the right to keep someone from bolting a route. Just cause it was first done by someone (in my mind) doesnt give them anymore say than anyone else. Not to take anything away from them but there is alot of rock out there whats the big deal.
You make a couple of good points here, but they conflict with one another. There is indeed a lot of rock out there. That is reason enough not to go back and mess with a route that has been established, in a certain style, and enjoyed by other climbers--perhaps for many many years. Because there is a lot of rock out there (and if you have some burning desire to put bolts in the rock) by all means go find some new route that has not yet been done--and place your bolts there.

In that case, the worst thing you can do is create a route that is a piece of crap. By adding bolts to an existing climb however, you can destroy an asset that is much valued by the general climbing community.

Curt


hello_heino


Oct 22, 2003, 7:50 PM
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Heino thinks that tradition and respect are ok qualities to have and that acceptance of the way a consensus of people have decided to do things makes a lot of sense, saves a lot of energy, and leads to maximization of experience.


sharpender


Oct 22, 2003, 7:51 PM
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xcire You can't even write a coherent sentence. Perhaps you should be in Uranus. You don't have the judgement to decide to bolt a crack/trad climb. It is this simple. It does not need to be bolted. It can be climbed just fine without bolts. Hey here's a thought. Have Nascar put in rails below the pavement, so noobs and boneheads can drive 195 mph in a race just like the big boys. Those slot car tracks will make it possible for them and safe for everybody. Geez. Again. :roll:


jt512


Oct 22, 2003, 7:57 PM
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In reply to:
You make a couple of good points here, but they conflict with one another.

I can envision many uses on the internet for such a line. I may have to steal it, Curt.

-Jay


xcire


Oct 22, 2003, 7:59 PM
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In reply to:
In reply to:
I just want to know what makes people think they have the right to keep someone from bolting a route. Just cause it was first done by someone (in my mind) doesnt give them anymore say than anyone else. Not to take anything away from them but there is alot of rock out there whats the big deal. Im not trying to start anything I just want to know if there is a real reason other than the whole trad mentality that they have the right to keep stuff from being bolted, keep in mind i do plan to climb trad one day

How about this then.. You go find your own crack. FA and bolt it.

I have only lead extremely easy trad, which I could have soloed but I respect the tradition underlying trad routes and more so the balls (or the female equivalent) that is required for leading difficult trad routes.

I keep thinking your posts are trolls and if so, well done.

How will you "climb trad one day" if all the trad routes are bolted?


Dave

Thats what my question is if a routes bolted cant you still climb it using trad. And to the do it like it was done in the beggining i dont see anyone ridding a horse to work. Humans improve things times change and no this is not a troll just wanted to see if there was a physical reason or if it was just a respect for fist ascents. I have no plans of bolting anything just trying to learn.

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