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feelio
Oct 22, 2003, 9:09 PM
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I climb it thay way too...just making another crack about the state of affairs. :lol:
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rockprodigy
Oct 23, 2003, 2:19 AM
Post #27 of 71
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In reply to: How old are you? Were you climbing in LCC back in 1983?
26. No, I was playing pee-wee soccer in '83.
In reply to: You said "rap bolting was accepted 20 years ago". Sorry man, but nothing could be farther from the truth! ...Believe me, rap climbing was bogus.
The "20" was a bit of an estimate. The reason I say it was "accepted" is because routes were put up in that style and allowed to remain. I supposed it depends on your definition of "accepted". I am by no means implying that such tactics were mainstream or prevalent, just that such tactics were used, and the routes were "accepted" (not removed).
Here are a couple cases:
-pg 154 "Wasatch Rock Climbs" by none other than yours truly:
Disco Chicken..."The bolts were put in on rappel. FA 1982 Bobby Rotert"
-All Chalk No Action...1987 FA Stuart Ruckman
From the Ruckmans guide (pg 11): "Between 1986 and the present, the ethical parameters have expanded to allow rappel-placed bolt routes.....Bitter, Bedford, Hauser, Ruckman, Storm and others developed routes that show the merits of intelligent rap-bolting....
So maybe I was off by 3 years.
In reply to: Also, where did you get the idea that placing bolts next to cracks was ok back then?
I got it from the fact that bolts were placed next to cracks and not removed. Again, I don't think it was standard practice but it was done. Honestly I have no idea when the bolts appeared, but they have been there for awhile. Maybe you could shed some light?
Here are my examples:
-Fallen Arches...I have no idea when the bolt was put there, but "feelio" claims it was done on the FA which was in the early 80's.
-Cranial Prophylactic...Again from your book: "Climb the crack past a bolt....The bolt on the first pitch was added on a later ascent...." Must have been placed pre-84 because it's in your book.
-Left Trinity&Center Trinity-I don't know when those bolts were placed but the FFA's were '85 and '88, respectively.
My point here is that the ethics in LCC are not pure as the driven snow...let's be honest.
As you can see, I love climbing history, and I love the dialogue, I would be very interested to hear your take on the climbing scene back in the early 80's...perhaps the "golden age" of LCC free climbing.
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feelio
Oct 23, 2003, 2:46 PM
Post #28 of 71
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Well put. But I think what Brian is trying to say is that these are a few routes out of hundreds in the canyon, that were done in "better" style. Exception or rule? I see your point, and appreciate the continued interest in this thread, and you expressing your opinion. And as far as this "ethics" crap goes, NOTHING is ever clear as the driven snow.
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bgallegos
Oct 23, 2003, 2:52 PM
Post #29 of 71
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In reply to: WORD UP!.....Also, what happened to the back-breaker rock at the base of the Green Adjective? I came up one day and the top had been blunted with a chisel, then a month later the whole thing was gone, complete with drill holes in the pieces on the ground. Poor. Some chopping is very much in order.
:?: You obviously haven't been climbing in LCC for long. I only started climber there about 7 yrs ago (the beginning of my career) and the back breaker was not there then. I came up a few years ago to see this new threat sitting at the bottom waiting for some fool to die on. I personally think it was put there to avoid the 10a start, but that's just my opinion.
I'm glad it's gone :!:
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mikeasca
Oct 23, 2003, 4:17 PM
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Don't we have enough routes as it is? After all thats what people,
land managers and government agencies bitch about is bolts. We have to many routes as it is and the new routes don't help it's already causing a problem. The asca can no longer replace bolts in red rocks because somebody decided to put up a long sport route during the temporary ban.
lets fix the bad bolts we have before adding more. Way to much talk about chopping- It never helps because the same guy will come back and drill it again. The last thing we need in lcc is bolt wars.
Thanks
mike
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brianinslc
Oct 23, 2003, 6:40 PM
Post #31 of 71
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In reply to: In reply to: WORD UP!.....Also, what happened to the back-breaker rock at the base of the Green Adjective? I came up one day and the top had been blunted with a chisel, then a month later the whole thing was gone, complete with drill holes in the pieces on the ground. Poor. Some chopping is very much in order. :?: You obviously haven't been climbing in LCC for long. I only started climber there about 7 yrs ago (the beginning of my career) and the back breaker was not there then. I came up a few years ago to see this new threat sitting at the bottom waiting for some fool to die on. I personally think it was put there to avoid the 10a start, but that's just my opinion.
I think it showed up the winter that Catalyst and Old Reliable fell down. Wasn't there prior to that.
I miss the gumby screen...its all the way downtown now...
Cha cha cha changes...
Brian in SLC
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k9rocko
Oct 23, 2003, 7:42 PM
Post #32 of 71
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Excelent thread. Pentapitch Direct, I believe, was put up by a lawyer. At Least, I know of a lawyer who was talking about his new routes..... and the many unclaimed FAs in our pristine canyon. He said he would be out 'puttin up routes'. I told him to spend some time climbing ours (the ones already put up)
I think I even stepped out of line and once told him to take his drill and move back to California. That kind of 'drill it up' attitude has ruined many crags with a 'trad climbing history'. Debate it if you wish.... but it is history
I love going to Pentapitch, and waiting in line for a classic trad route. Once the route is mine.... I climb it without the hub-bub you see at the salt lake slips (bolt-a-rama).
Both of these climbing areas have a purpose. The bolted playground is fun for the newer climbers, and the early season warmups. When I go to pentapitch, I am hoping for a little solice.... This, in part is what trad climbing means to me!
On the other hand, the rap anchors are needed to save the trees / shrubs. Natural colored bolt anchors can save lives too..... I could live without the chains.
My two cents,
J. Gabriel Bier
k9rocko
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k9rocko
Oct 23, 2003, 7:45 PM
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I know who destroyed the back-breaker (I have mixed emotions abou that). It was to restore the original route. Yes, it could have been placed somewhere else.... with less visible impact. I even think it was rolled down to make the route easier (maybe>) Yes, it has helped many 5.9 climbers up the route...
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feelio
Oct 23, 2003, 8:00 PM
Post #34 of 71
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Glad the back Breaker is gone too, but it sure made the 10a spicy!!
If you know the guy putting up these routes, direct him to this thread. Sasquatch direct?...gimmie a break. OR..you could just fourth class up to the ledge, like people have been doing for 20 years. Talk about contrived........
Glad to see more people clocking in on this topic, and sharing my opinion, for the most part. :
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grayhghost
Oct 23, 2003, 8:18 PM
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Do you guys really think someone rolled a 1000 lb stone down the hill to make the Green Adjective 10a-? To me that sounds truley insane. So as long as we are correcting for natural phenomenon I might as well glue that foot crystal that I broke back onto Tick Fever, because I don't want anyone to deck when their foot slipped and they were trying to place gear. :roll:
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veep23
Oct 23, 2003, 9:05 PM
Post #36 of 71
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What is Pentapitch Direct? I did Pentapitch the other day for the first time and the only bolts I recall are at the start, in between the 5.5 traverse and the 5.7 variation, and the two near the chimney. Is that the route?
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feelio
Oct 23, 2003, 9:49 PM
Post #37 of 71
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I think you're talking about schoolroom.
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brianinslc
Oct 23, 2003, 10:04 PM
Post #38 of 71
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In reply to: I think you're talking about schoolroom.
Nope, from the route database on this har site:
*************************
Sasquatch Direct 5.8
Difficulty: 5.8
Protection: one yellow metolius or blue metolius, draws, and optional medium cam. (If you are heading for Sasqu
Description: A new route directly below the tree/chain belay at the start of the super classic Sasquatch. Start in a easy slab corner about 15' above the slippery fallen tree you hike over when heading toward Industrial Wall. This is below the big tree and to the left about 10'. 5.6 gets you to a stance, clip two fixed pitons through moderate friction, then climb a sloping corner to the anchor below Sasquatch. FINALLY, you don't have to wait for people to quit top-roping the original first pitch of Pentapitch to get to Nubbins Direct, Sasquatch, and Nubbins to Nowhere. Clean climbing, no need to rumble through bushes. It's possible to lead through this to the top of Sasquatch for a long lead. F.A. tda solo 07-26-03
*********************************
I've avoided folks at the start of Pentapitch many times in the past (startin' for me in the mid eighties) by walking around to the right and climbing up to the start of Sasquatch. "Finally"? Geez. I did this again back in August but don't remember seeing a couple of pins...booty?
Brian in SLC
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veep23
Oct 23, 2003, 10:31 PM
Post #39 of 71
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In reply to: I think you're talking about schoolroom.
You're right... that's why it didn't make sense to me. duh! :oops:
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bsmoot
Oct 24, 2003, 1:11 AM
Post #40 of 71
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Rock Prodigy:
Just because the few rap-bolted climbs weren't chopped, it doesn't mean we didn't oppose rap bolting. In fact, some routes were chopped, but we left most of them as-is because back then, with a much smaller climbing community, we were all a pretty close-knit bunch of climbers. Most of us valued our friendships with each other as more important than chopping some bolt.
Your first post was alarming because you seemed to ignore the vast amount of bold traditional climbs that were done back then. In the 70s and 80s climbers tended to excel in hard, unprotected slab climbs. This type of climbing isn't done much anymore, but it did produce some great climbers, i.e. George Lowe, Mugs Stump, Conrad Anker, and others. None of these guys were into rap bolting. One of the hardest climbs in the country was done in this tradition -- the Dorsal Fin. Both Henry Barber and Jim Bridwell repeated this route, both saying it was harder than 5.10. Imagine back in 1965 climbing all those long runouts in hiking shoes.
This climb set a precedence for many of the future bold traditional climbs that now make up the rich history of LCC. I'm glad you appreciate this history, Mike. I'm just as interested in learning about the 60s as you are in learning about the 80s. Let's both keep good notes!
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stroker
Oct 24, 2003, 3:09 AM
Post #41 of 71
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Hi,
My name is Troy Anderson.
I'm the horrible one that climbed Sasquatch Direct. I do not judge others concerning climbing. I used to be very judgemental, yet I found that I had shortcomings in my judgements. I know that it's not difficult to distinguish whether bolting 5 feet next to an established climb is ethical. I also know that the less bolts the better. Thats pretty obvious between the Colorado Bolt Ladder on the King Fisher, and the Finger of Fate. I believe it to be quite presumptious to claim that LCC is at its peak of route discovery. I bet people believed that when Tingeys Terror was improved with Tingeys Torture. There I go with my own presumtion.
In response to Sasquatch Direct, there aren't any drilled holes. Concerning the "style" it was put up in, I was fumbling clove hitch loops in my teeth. I had to use my teeth due to the fact that I had to hold on to the the rock, refusing to hang on anything. So what, 5.8 solo while pounding two pins. Why do I feel obligated to defend myself anyhow. I feel no need to defend myself concerning the ending of the title "...need to sack up." I've done many "sack up" routes, I'll still do more. I love the Wasatch, I do not want more clip-ups. Let the majority of the sport routes stay on limestone. I don't aggree with the statement about those pins being booty. They are not visible. You can only see them when you climb the route. If people want to pull these pegs, take a wrench and yank the bolts off Neuroromancer. After all, you can clip some of the bolts while climbing the first pitch of Pentapitch and they glimmer in the light when you hike up. I don't want to make enemies. I simply want to enjoy climbing.
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rockprodigy
Oct 24, 2003, 4:18 AM
Post #42 of 71
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In reply to: Just because the few rap-bolted climbs weren't chopped, it doesn't mean we didn't oppose rap bolting.
Yeah, I think it really depends on your definition of "accepted". I contend, that if a route was put up in a certain style, and not chopped...that style is "accepted". Compare that to a place like Yosemite, where, during the 80's, every rap-bolted route was chopped.
I picked those particular routes as examples because they were both done by "heavy hitters"...Rotert, and Ruckman. It's not like they were done by anonymous out-of-towners.
In reply to: Your first post was alarming because you seemed to ignore the vast amount of bold traditional climbs that were done back then.
I have great respect for the bold routes, and the climbers who established them. I think it is possible for different styles to co-exist in the same canyon, and I believe they have, for the past 17 years at least.
In reply to: One of the hardest climbs in the country was done in this tradition -- the Dorsal Fin. Both Henry Barber and Jim Bridwell repeated this route, both saying it was harder than 5.10.
I couldn't agree more! Solid 5.11 if you ask me, but sometimes I wonder if maybe there were more footholds back then.... You know how those little chips break off over time? That was the first route I tried in LCC as a matter of fact...what a rude awakening!
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feelio
Oct 24, 2003, 2:13 PM
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Yo Stoker! Thanks for popping in to express your opinion. Gotta shoot an apology to you here, as I unfairly lumped your variation in with some bolt jobs that are way more offensive(and more relative to the point I am trying to make). I climbed your variation the other day, and I gotta say it is kinda fun, though I know for a fact it was soloed LONG ago.
In the previous thread someone noted that you may be the one putting up some of these new squeezed routes. I just wanted you to read what some of the locals have to say on this topic, and maybe realize that although California may be bolted into submission, 'round here we try to use a little restraint. I love putting up FA's as well, but sometimes you gotta ask if it is for the greater good, or just a tick in the guidebook.
By the way...does anyone know who added the bolt to Endless Torment? It has been confirmed that FA team did not do this. So........who was the wuss that didn't want to climb above a perfectly good RP, and decided for everyone else that it should be "sterilized"?
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just_me
Oct 24, 2003, 4:43 PM
Post #44 of 71
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I would like to add another facet to this discussion, and see how people feel about this topic: rap bolting.
I am only talking about putting up a new route, not modifying existing routes. I am also not trying to debate or justify a “squeeze” route.
Let’s say someone wants to establish a new route, either completely bolted or mixed, on a face that has not been climbed before in any other manner. Is the ascent any more “valid” if the bolts are placed from the ground up versus on rappel?
Many people seem to think that rap bolting is a dirty word. But does the style of the first ascent make any difference to you? Would you climb or not climb a certain route based on how it was put up?
So if the FA party decides to place bolts on the FA, do you really care how they were placed? If you care, tell me why, or how this impacts your climbing experience.
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rockprodigy
Oct 24, 2003, 9:56 PM
Post #45 of 71
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Start a new thread. This is about Little Cottonwood, Ut (LCC).
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k9rocko
Oct 25, 2003, 5:40 AM
Post #46 of 71
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In reply to: In the previous thread someone noted that you may be the one putting up some of these new squeezed routes. I just wanted you to read what some of the locals have to say on this topic, and maybe realize that although California may be bolted into submission, 'round here we try to use a little restraint. I love putting up FA's as well, but sometimes you gotta ask if it is for the greater good, or just a tick in the guidebook.
No.... Stoker isn't the user name I was seeking out with the 'I'm puttin up new routes everywhere...", his username was different. I can't remember it.... but I'll never forget it.
Please..... no new routes on the PPtch....
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cracklover
Jun 28, 2004, 2:20 PM
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Hi Folks,
I'm dredging this one up out of the mists because I did pentapitch yesterday, and was confused. Why is there a bolt on the last pitch? I placed a bomber small nut about two feet away from that bolt (and more in the line of the climb). Was this bolt part of the FA? If so, why is it regularly replaced? I realize that nuts may not have been around during the FA, but why keep replacing that bolt? I'm from the North East, so maybe I don't understand the trad ethics out in Utah.
By the way, fun route!
GO
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cracklover
Jul 27, 2004, 6:42 PM
Post #48 of 71
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In reply to: Hi Folks, I'm dredging this one up out of the mists because I did pentapitch yesterday, and was confused. Why is there a bolt on the last pitch? I placed a bomber small nut about two feet away from that bolt (and more in the line of the climb). Was this bolt part of the FA? If so, why is it regularly replaced? I realize that nuts may not have been around during the FA, but why keep replacing that bolt? I'm from the North East, so maybe I don't understand the trad ethics out in Utah. By the way, fun route! GO
No comments, huh? This is a very popular route, isn't it? Doesn't anyone have an opinion on that bolt? If you need your memories refreshed, I can provide a pic.
GO
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therealdeal
Jul 27, 2004, 7:44 PM
Post #49 of 71
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that bolt has been there a long time....
i guess you handle your nuts really well....should be proud
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timpanogos
Jul 27, 2004, 8:11 PM
Post #50 of 71
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I have not done this route in a while - any locals want to "check out the bolt" this week?
Chad
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