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jefffski
Oct 24, 2003, 11:32 PM
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Just curious how you test your cam placements. i visually inspect the placement to see if the lobes are retracted at least 50%, that the cam is placed to the back of the crack so it will not walk, that the rock is sound (i climb mostly on granite) and that the cam is set on a stable surface. I do not usually yank on a cam. i believe that if the above conditions are met the cam will hold.
Some people i climb with will yank on the cam to make sure it will hold. i don't see the point in this. am i missing something?
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telemarkist
Oct 24, 2003, 11:36 PM
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I yank on all my placements, it can't hurt and I've never had a piece pull in a fall(knock on wood).
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vegastradguy
Oct 24, 2003, 11:46 PM
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climbing on sandstone (especially unpopular routes), makes a guy yank on cams. i've only placed one cam that ever pulled on me during a yank test (i placed it blind, from a bad position), more due to bad rock than necessarily the cam placement.
however, when we were in Yosemite, I rarely yanked on 'em...i just knew they were bomber by looking at 'em.
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lazide
Oct 25, 2003, 12:54 AM
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the yank makes sure the cam angle is good for the friction of the rock inside the placements. Sometimes in flared cracks it will be just a TAD too flared, and will pull if you yank on it - sometimes the rock may be very slippery (desert varnish, some quartzite, etc), and the same will happen.
According to Wildcountry, if you can yank on it and it sticks, then all else being equal (rock doesn't break, doesn't shift to another placement, etc), it will stick in the event of a fall.
That said, I rarely yank on a cam placement - only if in a signifigant flare or rock texture I am not used too.
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andypro
Oct 25, 2003, 1:05 AM
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In reply to: Some people i climb with will yank on the cam to make sure it will hold. i don't see the point in this. am i missing something?
I always yank. Every piece I put in gets a yank. maybe jsu habbit form making sure my pasive stuff is set, but once in a while I'll find that a placement wasn't as great as I thoguh it was by the way it moves/feels during the yank. Then I fix it and move on.
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ajkclay
Oct 25, 2003, 1:09 AM
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to yank or not to yank.... that is the question
why the hell not yank? is a better one.
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herm
Oct 25, 2003, 3:24 AM
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Yanking is OK- everyone does it. Why not? If you are climbing at your limit, it wastes energy. If you are going for an at your limit onsight, you don't waste time on each peice of pro. Speed is efficiency.
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sbclimber
Oct 25, 2003, 3:41 AM
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In reply to: why the hell not yank?
Sometimes it makes it hard for the second to get out. It shouldn't always be necessary for a nut tool.
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reno
Oct 25, 2003, 4:01 AM
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There are two types of guys... those who "yank" on it, and those who lie about it.
Sorry... it had to be said.
Back to your regularily scheduled thread:
I give a hard tug (yank, jerk, etc.) on EVERY piece of gear *EXCEPT* my Tri-Cams. Those only get a mild yank/jerk/tug (for no other reason than they can get very hard to clean if they're yanked/tugged/jerked.)
Be certain you don't put your body weight into the yank/tug/jerk, lest you fall while testing your gear!
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alpnclmbr1
Oct 25, 2003, 4:58 AM
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The majority of my cam placements are passive in addition to being active placements. The main exception to this being parallel cracks. I rarely place cams in a downward flare, and this is the one situation where I do a test tug on it.
If I do fiddle with a cam it is almost always to pre-walk it, i.e. to wiggle the stem to where it locks the cams into place or walks out of place in which case I move it to another place.
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bouldrinsoill
Oct 25, 2003, 5:06 AM
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i yank. sandstone-you yank. wierd placement-you yank. rock looks less than solid- you yank. i yank.
Phillip
:roll:
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chill
Oct 25, 2003, 7:12 AM
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i yank mainly for peace of mind. i know my placements are almost always bomber, but occassionally you'll get that placement in a flared crack that didn't go in as planned.
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phreakdigital
Oct 25, 2003, 8:34 AM
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yanking is key i think...sometimes i will set a nut by yanking and then after clipping i will sit on the anchor...it makes them harder to get out, but less likely to come out.
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redpoint73
Oct 25, 2003, 11:10 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: why the hell not yank? Sometimes it makes it hard for the second to get out. It shouldn't always be necessary for a nut tool.
Uhhh . . . You realize that we are talking about CAMS right?????
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desertclimber
Oct 25, 2003, 11:46 AM
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. .
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andypro
Oct 25, 2003, 4:30 PM
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In reply to: (Excluding any unforseen events, such as UFO attacks or a falling meteor)
Dont forget those guys that measure your TV. They're evil. You know what I mean...when you pop in a tape or DVD, and it says it's been modified to fit MY tv...how do they know it will fit MY tv if they havn't measured it while I was sleeping or soemthing?! I'm gonna catch them one day..then it's on.
Anyways...how would you feel if you had to measure all those TV's? There couldn't be THAT many of them, or we'd have caught them already. They are proprietors of subversion and sabotage...always trying to make thier job easier. BEWARE PEOPLE. DONT LET THEM GET YOU! :twisted:
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omenbringer
Oct 25, 2003, 8:54 PM
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The wild country cam book suggests you yank test all cam placements. This accomplishes two important things, first it shows you what the cam is going to do under load and second it shows you if the cam is going to hold. To qoute directly out of the book " to go back to the friction test again, the same result would be obtained if a block of alloy the size of a suger cube or a block weighing two tons were used. The angle at which the block will start to slip is independent of the load applied. What this means in practice is that if you place a Friend and pull on it, and it does not come out, (and so long as you do not disturb the placement), the friend will hold up to the limit of the unit or the rock. The visual inspection of the placement while good, should be backed up with a good tug. Hope this helps. If you want to see the wild country cam book go to their website and download it, it really opens the eyes to the workings of the cam.
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tradmanclimbs
Oct 25, 2003, 11:22 PM
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Guy I know yanked, the piece pulled and he decked from 25 ft right in front of his new girlfriend. Talk about a rough way to get a sympathy FU$& :shock: he was all messed up but the sympathy thing worked pretty good for him. last I heard they were still hooked up :D
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rcaret
Oct 25, 2003, 11:28 PM
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I always back up a visual check with a good tug , It was the way I was taught and the way I will continue.
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afiveonbelay
Oct 27, 2003, 6:43 AM
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yank, wiggle, tug
(the wiggle helps to see if it walks)
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ajkclay
Oct 27, 2003, 9:31 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: why the hell not yank? Sometimes it makes it hard for the second to get out. It shouldn't always be necessary for a nut tool. Uhhh . . . You realize that we are talking about CAMS right?????
:? you took the words out of my mouth
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allenperry
Oct 27, 2003, 2:37 PM
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While a good tug may help new climbers build a little confidence in their placements, for the most part I think it tells you nothing. You should be more concerned with the quality of the rock around the cams, the cam angle, and their tendency to walk. That said, I usually pull the cam "side to side" in a horizontal to determine if it will walk into a weaker position. In a vertical placement "pull up" to see what this does to cam position and so on. (Saw a guy take a nasty whipper in Gunks last year when his Alien inverted. It was placed in a vertical flare crack and when it lifted slightly it opened the lobes on the outside enough that they were rendered useless. He fell and pulled that cam like it was made of paper. When placed it was tugged on by the leader)
I've seen plenty of cam placements that couldn't be yanked out with your arm, but would surely have pulled under a load. If you don't believe it it, look at the accident reports and consider how many of them were from cams pulling. Likely, many of the cams were "yank" tested first by the leader.
Finally, Ive also seen many a climber almost fall when yanking out a cam they were "testing". Others nearly lost eyes or otherwise received nasty lumps the from the whip action on the cam when it pulls during their "test".
I know there may be a few situations where the said "yank test" may be advisable, but overall, especially if you're new, don't make too much of it.
Just another opinion.
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ep
Oct 27, 2003, 6:49 PM
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I agree with allenperry. I rarely find reason to yank on a cam placement to test it. And you better not be doing that with my cams; they get enough abuse as it is. In obvious placements I find any sort of testing is unnecessary. In odd placements I'll work the cam into different spots attempting to find the best key/lock fit for it. I might push and pull gently on the cam while working the trigger in this case to get a feel for the placement, but not "yank" on it agressively. In unavoidable "psyche" placements that look like crap, I admittedly yank sometimes. One of three things then usually happens: (1) The piece falls out; (2) The piece stays but I don't fall on it; (3) The piece comes out when I fall on it.
Even when aid climbing, yanking doesn't give you enough information. If you want a bodyweight piece you need to apply that much and a bit more via bounce testing or similar method. To test a piece for a dynamic fall, what exactly does yanking tell you? In the laboratory or on paper it might work to talk about sliding blocks and sugar cubes, but in sometimes friable, odd shaped, crystal studded cracks, you might as well just be yanking on yourself.
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atg200
Oct 27, 2003, 8:17 PM
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yeah, most aid climbers and especially ones who climb on sandstone, can tell you stories about pieces surviving a yank test and blowing on the bounce test. a yank test tells you essentially nothing except that the piece may possibly be so bad it can't survive a yank test.
the crap from the wild country cam manual is just that - crap. get your head out of the book, do some bounce tests, and you'll see what cams are like in the real world.
not yanking on cams to spare them abuse is the funniest thing i have ever heard. they are built to take it. even aliens, whose cam lobes deform fairly easily, are pretty much unaffected by something like a yank test.
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jumaringjeff
Oct 27, 2003, 8:45 PM
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If your pro is less than sound...youuuuuu must yank it
If you want it to hold a fall...youuuuuu must yank it
So yank it.....yank it good
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