|
beaner_says_hi
Oct 28, 2003, 3:07 AM
Post #1 of 91
(7988 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 2, 2003
Posts: 450
|
Is it just me, or does it seem that even lots of very experienced climbers have their pro zipper. I hear about it all the time; is it a matter of how it is placed, or gear failure, or...I don't seem to have a very clear picture on this yet. Any thoughts?
|
|
|
|
|
pirateclimber
Oct 28, 2003, 3:13 AM
Post #2 of 91
(7988 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 17, 2002
Posts: 114
|
In reply to: ...is it a matter of how it is placed, or gear failure, or...
To quote the quote "Gear doesn't fail, placements fail"
In other words I can't think of a single instance of well placed gear failing resulting in a catastrophic failure of all pieces. More often "zippering" is a result of poor placements (which includes good placements in poor rock) or sparse placements (i.e. running it out).
|
|
|
|
|
curt
Oct 28, 2003, 3:14 AM
Post #3 of 91
(7988 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 27, 2002
Posts: 18275
|
In reply to: Is it just me, or does it seem that even lots of very experienced climbers have their pro zipper. I hear about it all the time; is it a matter of how it is placed, or gear failure, or...I don't seem to have a very clear picture on this yet. Any thoughts?
Interesting question, here is my experience. I have climbed for a quarter century and led hundreds of routes on gear--up through 5.12. I have never had my top piece of gear pull in a fall. Of course, I hate to fall, so I don't test my gear that often.
Curt
|
|
|
|
|
brianthew
Oct 28, 2003, 3:16 AM
Post #4 of 91
(7988 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 25, 2002
Posts: 1820
|
It's a combination of things.
Here's what happens in a zipper:
The climber falls, causing the rope to go taut. If the protection is not in a perfect plumb-vertical line (and when is it?) the newly taut rope will cause outward (or sideways) force on the placements below the top placement (it tries to form a straight line between the top placement and the belayer, and of course, the gear still in the rock [for] opposes this movement). Now, if this sudden outward force causes a piece to rip, in many cases this causes more outward force on the other pieces of pro, which in turn might rip them out. Chain reaction.
That's why it is critical to have your bottom piece bomber and multi-directional, so any fall will not cause the rope to snap way out from the rock (again, the rope, when weighted, tries to make a straight line from the catching piece and the belayer, who is likely standing a bit out from the rock). Making sure the rope only moves out a foot or so (however long your multi-directional's runner is) is key in zipper prevention.
But anyway:
Pros zipper gear because there aren't always these magic bomber placements. Gear poorly set in good placements or gear "properly" set in crappy placements will zipper the same. As said earlier, gear rarely fails, it's the placement.
|
|
|
|
|
climb_plastic
Oct 28, 2003, 3:18 AM
Post #5 of 91
(7988 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 24, 2003
Posts: 706
|
In reply to: In reply to: ...is it a matter of how it is placed, or gear failure, or... To quote the quote " Gear doesn't fail, placements fail"
So to be more politically correct the statement should be that he seems to hear a lot of stories of placements failing.
|
|
|
|
|
shortfatoldguy
Oct 28, 2003, 3:20 AM
Post #6 of 91
(7988 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 4, 2002
Posts: 1694
|
^^Yeah, but Curt, isn't zippering pro a problem of the bottom piece pulling...then the next piece up, and the next piece up, etc.?
This is why, as I understand it, one might want to consider placing two pieces in opposition at the start of the pitch. Or at least making damn sure the belayer isn't standing at the base of the pitch 15 feet out from the rock so that the first piece is pulled outward instead of downward, thus initiating the dreaded zipper.
[Edit to bitch about the people who got there first...]
|
|
|
|
|
brianthew
Oct 28, 2003, 3:22 AM
Post #7 of 91
(7988 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 25, 2002
Posts: 1820
|
In reply to: bottom piece pulling...then the next piece up
Indeed, I've witnessed a case where a climber fell, his top piece held just fine but every piece below it pulled...his multidirectional failed, and zzziiiip!
|
|
|
|
|
maculated
Oct 28, 2003, 3:23 AM
Post #8 of 91
(7988 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 23, 2001
Posts: 6179
|
Listen to Brian, he knows the way. I learned about the problems of zippering the hard way.
I suspect many people zipper because, like me, they knew about certain techniques but never employed them.
I sure as hell do now, though.
|
|
|
|
|
hello_heino
Oct 28, 2003, 3:29 AM
Post #9 of 91
(7988 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 23, 2003
Posts: 231
|
Heino always gets a multi-diurectional piece as soon as possible on every pitch. This was burned into his memory as gospel and mandatory by the lords on high of hard trad climbing. Only the works of Roy Orbison have had greater impact on Heino. Because Heino enjoys pushing his rather limited limits, he falls more often than most, and as such has no need to have pieces fail by zippering.
|
|
|
|
|
pirateclimber
Oct 28, 2003, 3:44 AM
Post #10 of 91
(7988 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 17, 2002
Posts: 114
|
In reply to: ...isn't zippering pro a problem of the bottom piece pulling...then the next piece up, and the next piece up, etc.?
No, it goes both ways. What happened to Goran Kropp would be a notable example.
|
|
|
|
|
dalguard
Oct 28, 2003, 11:11 AM
Post #11 of 91
(7988 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 1, 2003
Posts: 239
|
Having your gear zipper from the bottom up would certainly be disconcerting but it doesn't usually affect the piece you're now hanging from because you're hanging from it.
It's the zipper from the top down that kills people and I think the problem is that each piece that pulls makes it more likely that the next piece will pull.
There was a good long debate on the subject of whether placing marginal gear increases or decreases your safety factor on rec.climbing once. I don't think a decision was ever reached but it was an educational discussion. Search Google Groups for "will this piece slow me down" or similar.
|
|
|
|
|
curt
Oct 28, 2003, 4:14 PM
Post #12 of 91
(7988 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 27, 2002
Posts: 18275
|
In reply to: ^^Yeah, but Curt, isn't zippering pro a problem of the bottom piece pulling...then the next piece up, and the next piece up, etc.? This is why, as I understand it, one might want to consider placing two pieces in opposition at the start of the pitch. Or at least making damn sure the belayer isn't standing at the base of the pitch 15 feet out from the rock so that the first piece is pulled outward instead of downward, thus initiating the dreaded zipper. [Edit to b---- about the people who got there first...]
Perhaps it is a regional distinction or something. I have always considered "zippering" pro to mean that the leader falls, pulls his top piece of pro out, then pulls the next piece and the next piece--until either something eventually holds--or he decks.
Curt
|
|
|
|
|
ryanhos
Oct 28, 2003, 4:44 PM
Post #13 of 91
(7988 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 8, 2003
Posts: 132
|
By no means the authoritative source on this issue, the RC.com climbing terms page says:
Zipper - vb. to pull out protection sequentially while falling.
It gives no mention of "bottom up" or "top down." I've used the term to describe both. I've seen both. I've even seen them happen concurrently. That's the scariest. Pro ripping out from both ends of the rope and the guy just isn't stopping. Finally a 0.5 clog cam, the last piece in the wall, saves his ass. His GF has a belay device full of gear and he's probably urinating all over himself. Maybe if he hadn't set the gear on rap and had considered how the fall forces would affect his gear he wouldn't be hanging 20ft up from a single cam. That day I lerned many valuable lessons from that lucky SOB. Your first placement should be multidirectional, your belayer should be anchored and near the wall as much as possible, and "straight down" placements don't work in a 45 degree left-veering crack. (I thought this was obvious....)
|
|
|
|
|
zetedog
Oct 28, 2003, 5:54 PM
Post #14 of 91
(7988 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 20, 2002
Posts: 69
|
I am not trying to start an argument about when gear pulls, what is it called, but ANAM seems to use zippering to mean from the bottom up, and ripped or pulled gear if the top piece fails, then sequentially. Even then, there seems to be some inconsistancies. I saw a guy take a small fall 2-3 years back at seneca, and managed to rip 2 or 3 placements of his gear in between (traversing route). Would that be equivalent to when your zipper gets fuddled up and it is mismatched or open? Is there a technical name for a messed up zipper?
I hardly climb with "pros" and I have only seen a top down or bottom up zipper once (bottom up). I tend to assume it is the climber's ability to place gear (mixed with speed he needs to place it, gripped factor, etc).
The "pros" are probably on wicked hard climbs where they are trying to move as quickly as possible to avoid the burn. But who knows?
|
|
|
|
|
hugepedro
Oct 28, 2003, 6:15 PM
Post #15 of 91
(7988 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 28, 2002
Posts: 2875
|
I've always thought the term "zipper effect" applied to gear being dislodged from the bottom up due to rope tension in a fall. At least that's the way I read it in Freedom of the Hills. Gear pulling is a placement failing under the primary force of a fall (leader falling on it), and sometimes multiple pieces pull sequentially. Regardless of what we call them, zippering and pulling are distinctly different problems.
|
|
|
|
|
desertgranite
Oct 28, 2003, 6:16 PM
Post #16 of 91
(7988 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 2, 2003
Posts: 52
|
In reply to: Listen to Brian, he knows the way. I learned about the problems of zippering the hard way. I suspect many people zipper because, like me, they knew about certain techniques but never employed them. I sure as hell do now, though.
Or maybe they're climbing on less than solid rock, such as sandstone or welded tuft. I don't think that many people (climbers) pull pro all that often. The ones that do, you end up reading about in Accidents, check it out.
|
|
|
|
|
slabmaster
Oct 28, 2003, 6:36 PM
Post #17 of 91
(7988 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 17, 2003
Posts: 42
|
I read about it all the time too. I have never seen it but I know ~25% of the climbers i know/see take the time to set up a multi-directional at the base/start of a pitch. 1/2 the guys who do typically place a cam.
I bought myself a set of micros (from eBay). I use a micro at the top and a regular nut below it. Clip a sling to the micro and clove hitch it to the nut leaving a loop at the end of the sling. I then clip a biner to the loop and make this my first clip to the rope. I try to set it up so it is at least above my belayers waist (i.e. belay device). The micro serves as upward tension on the nut. The nut is the piece that actually stops any upward pull.
A bit time consuming but makes me feel safe.
~r
|
|
|
|
|
jt512
Oct 28, 2003, 6:53 PM
Post #18 of 91
(7988 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 12, 2001
Posts: 21904
|
In reply to: Is it just me, or does it seem that even lots of very experienced climbers have their pro zipper. I hear about it all the time; is it a matter of how it is placed, or gear failure, or...I don't seem to have a very clear picture on this yet. Any thoughts?
I've rarely had even a single piece come out, much less had my pro zipper. Zippering is most commonly caused by failing to put in a multidirectional first piece. In a fall the first (lowest) piece gets pulled up by the rope. If the first piece is a nut set for a downward pull, it gets pulled up. Ditto on up the pitch. Placing a first piece that is multidirectional -- either a cam or opposed nuts -- is usually all you have to do to solve the problem.
-Jay
|
|
|
|
|
billcoe_
Oct 28, 2003, 8:42 PM
Post #19 of 91
(7988 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 30, 2002
Posts: 4694
|
In reply to: I've rarely had even a single piece come out, much less had my pro zipper. Zippering is most commonly caused by failing to put in a multidirectional first piece. Placing a first piece that is multidirectional -- either a cam or opposed nuts -- is usually all you have to do to solve the problem. -Jay
Beg to differ JT but you're incorrect, I've done unsuccesfull CPR on a fella that zippered 4 pieces from the top, all his bottom pieces held just fine.
He augered in from 60 feet up, unusually, he had fallen (small falls though) on his 2nd from the top piece twice AND IT HELD, then climbed up, put in another one, climbed stright up, off route, fell and zippered the top 4. About a 60 footer before he augered in and died.
BTW, it's still great advice to set a first piece for an upwards via slotting 2 nuts in opposition or a cam. Cams work best when the climbing gets hard, hard to hang out and fiddle with an upward and a downward nut.
Bill
|
|
|
|
|
jt512
Oct 28, 2003, 8:52 PM
Post #20 of 91
(7988 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 12, 2001
Posts: 21904
|
In reply to: In reply to: I've rarely had even a single piece come out, much less had my pro zipper. Zippering is most commonly caused by failing to put in a multidirectional first piece. Placing a first piece that is multidirectional -- either a cam or opposed nuts -- is usually all you have to do to solve the problem. -Jay Beg to differ JT but you're incorrect, I've done unsuccesfull CPR on a fella that zippered 4 pieces from the top, all his bottom pieces held just fine.
Hmm, I don't really see anything in your post that would suggest anything in mind is incorrect. At any rate...
I don't really considering pulling pieces from the top down "zippering," though it's a matter of semantics. Unless the climbing involved unavoidable marginal to bad pro, sequentially pulling pieces from the top down would suggest that the leader didn't know how to place pro. What's the solution for incompetence?
-Jay
|
|
|
|
|
ropeburn
Oct 28, 2003, 8:58 PM
Post #21 of 91
(7988 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 19, 2003
Posts: 594
|
In reply to: What's the solution for incompetence? -Jay
Darwinism.
:mrgreen:
|
|
|
|
|
hammer_
Oct 28, 2003, 9:09 PM
Post #22 of 91
(7988 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 3, 2003
Posts: 179
|
If your belayer is away from the wall there will be an outward pull on the first piece. Just have your belayer stand close to the wall, that will eliminate in 99.999% of cases any chance of the first piece pulling due to an outward force.
|
|
|
|
|
jt512
Oct 28, 2003, 9:30 PM
Post #23 of 91
(7988 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 12, 2001
Posts: 21904
|
In reply to: If your belayer is away from the wall there will be an outward pull on the first piece. Just have your belayer stand close to the wall, that will eliminate in 99.999% of cases any chance of the first piece pulling due to an outward force.
I disagree. Even if your belayer is very close to the wall, the rope still pulls the first piece up. I've posted about this before. I've witnessed it on more than one occasion, most recently on a climb to which my belayer was anchored closely into the wall. I looked down after falling, and the first piece (a cam) had rotated and was pointing straight up at me. You can see this same phenomenon on sport climbs. Even with your belayer staying right up against the wall below the first bolt, the draw gets pulled up when the rope comes tight in a fall. Make that first piece multidirectional regardless of how close your belayer is to the wall.
-Jay
|
|
|
|
|
hammer_
Oct 28, 2003, 9:33 PM
Post #24 of 91
(7988 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 3, 2003
Posts: 179
|
mi
|
|
|
|
|
hammer_
Oct 28, 2003, 9:39 PM
Post #25 of 91
(7988 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 3, 2003
Posts: 179
|
In reply to: In reply to: If your belayer is away from the wall there will be an outward pull on the first piece. Just have your belayer stand close to the wall, that will eliminate in 99.999% of cases any chance of the first piece pulling due to an outward force. I disagree. Even if your belayer is very close to the wall, the rope still pulls the first piece up. I've posted about this before. I've witnessed it on more than one occasion, most recently on a climb to which my belayer was anchored closely into the wall. I looked down after falling, and the first piece (a cam) had rotated and was pointing straight up at me. You can see this same phenomenon on sport climbs. Even with your belayer staying right up against the wall below the first bolt, the draw gets pulled up when the rope comes tight in a fall. Make that first piece multidirectional regardless of how close your belayer is to the wall. -Jay
Use longer slings
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
1
