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moabbeth
Oct 28, 2003, 3:49 AM
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Not only will it now cost $5 a day to camp there, they're installing a rangers kiosk there to keep track of everything...assigning campsites, making sure people pay for them, etc.
One of the great things about Hidden Valley is how casual it is, it's not a big scene like Camp 4, especially the fact that the rangers pretty much leave the HVCG climbers alone...unlike in Camp 4 where the Tool's main mission in life is to hassle climbers every chance they get. Hopefully the permanent presence of the ranger's kiosk won't encourage the rangers here to be like the Tools of Yosemite.
I find it kinda disconcerting, all the changes coming to Josh. The project widening of the road from Keyes View turnoff all the way up past Sheep's Pass...cause otherwise the massive Winnebagos might have a hard time driving through! And the way they're clamping down on HVCG, all the regulations coming into effect on January 1st. Kinda sad.
I hope this isn't another case of the NPS trying to turn a lovely national park into another friggin Disneyland where the Winnebago and Touron visitors are placed on a pedestal.
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sharpender
Oct 28, 2003, 4:02 AM
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moabbeth wrote: In reply to: I hope this isn't another case of the NPS trying to turn a lovely national park into another friggin Disneyland where the Winnebago and Touron visitors are placed on a pedestal.
Me thinks you nailed it right on.... Do they know anything else?
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pirateclimber
Oct 28, 2003, 4:18 AM
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I gotta say that I don't mind paying $5 to camp. I also don't mind rangers. I also think climbers more than any other user group have had the greatest impact on the Park, both good and bad, have the greatest sense of self entitlement, and all to often the least sense of accountability. Here's little more
insight into the new changes.
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hello_heino
Oct 28, 2003, 4:30 AM
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In reply to: I hope this isn't another case of the NPS trying to turn a lovely national park into another friggin Disneyland where the Winnebago and Touron visitors are placed on a pedestal.
Heino boldly predicts extreme unhappiness in the near future.
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moabbeth
Oct 28, 2003, 5:06 AM
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In reply to: I gotta say that I don't mind paying $5 to camp. I also don't mind rangers. I also think climbers more than any other user group have had the greatest impact on the Park, both good and bad, have the greatest sense of self entitlement, and all to often the least sense of accountability. Here's little more insight into the new changes.
I dunno...I'm a little more skeptical than you I guess. I don't see this as "this is great for all of us!" like the Sup seemed to imply. I was told there will be a ranger's kiosk with ranger at HVCG, not an iron tube. And regardless, I think this is a way that they're going to make more $$ off of the tourists in their giant campo machines by putting them into HVCG. $35 for a week of camping for a Touron is a steal, but for poor climbers it could be a cost they can't afford.
And I do NOT agree with your statement that climbers more than "any other user" have the greatest impact on the park. That is BS! You see climbers on designated trails, and not off tromping all over the landscape off trail damaging the desert soil like you do with tourists and families. I see climbers pick up other people's trash left on trails. I see hikers and their dogs pooping without cleaning it up. I see troops of boy scouts running all over the place damaging areas that need restoration. I've seen families come in and have lunch at the tables at HV (not the CG) and leave a mess of trash. If anything, climbers are THE most consciencious patrons of Joshua Tree. Are we perfect? No...no group is entirely perfect. But we are FAR more aware of our impact on the environment and how we need to be aware and responsible outside...far more than any other group.
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mreardon
Oct 28, 2003, 5:18 AM
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Gotta go with Beth on this one. We already pay to enter land we already own as taxpayers. Now we get more stuff tossed at us with no extra benefits. Go to most of the major climbing spots in So. Cal. and wherever tourists are allowed, the trash is increased a ton. Where it's just climbers, I'm lucky to find a piece of tape. Climbers most times are much more considerate. What I find extremely ironic is that it's been climbers who have occupied the campsites more than the tourists all these years, and now they're basically kicking the climbers out.
Kind of like Red Rocks of old. the rangers hated the climbers putting in all those routes, then a loop road was made permanent, and sure enough, why do the tourists show up at all? To see the climbers.... Duh.
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rogueclimber
Oct 28, 2003, 6:03 AM
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In reply to: I gotta say that I don't mind paying $5 to camp. I also don't mind rangers. I also think climbers more than any other user group have had the greatest impact on the Park, both good and bad, have the greatest sense of self entitlement, and all to often the least sense of accountability. Here's little more insight into the new changes.
I gota say you don't sound like any pirate I've ever rogued with. Since ya don't seem ta' mind handing over an extra five gold pieces then I suspect yer ship is not flying the jolly roger atoll!
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pirateclimber
Oct 28, 2003, 8:16 AM
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OK, so maybe it's just me?! $5 a night split amongst my friends just doesn't seem like a problem and I especially have no problem if 80% of that goes to the Park that I spend 7 months a year climbing in. The other 20% going to smaller parks that can't generate funds on their own seems reasonable as well if it helps to keep more land out of developers hands. Do any of us think Bush is gonna up the NPS budget anytime soon? Yeah, that money goes to infrastructure and salaries, but we all drive on the same roads, park in the same lots, poo in the same vault toilets, hike on the same trails, sit on the same benches, burn wood in the same pits, as the "tourons" everyone is so against.
That's another peve of mine, the down the nose view many climbers have of tourists. I was carcamping with my family as young as I can remember, a Boyscout, and touristing in Josh long before I ever started climbing. Stewardship of the land is learned as is mutual respect.
I also don't understand why everyone seems to have problems with rangers? In all my life I've only had one problem with a LEO in the Valley. Other than that one incident it's always been a friendly wave and a "How's it going?" Yes, occasionally they ask you to do something that might be a minor inconvenience, but I truly think that "Us against Them" attitude is silly.
And lastly, as has already been agreed upon, we climbers are one of the largest user groups in Josh. Unless you all float we definitely have a large impact on the land. Those "established" trails we use were once pristine desert until series of climbers tromped them into submission. And I find trash at the base of crags all the time. How many times have you been kept awake by some dirtball hippy climber blowing in his dijideroo (or however the hell you spell that?!) or just plain hammered and yelling at their campmates while falling off the slackline. I could go on but the point is that it's like the pot calling the kettle... Yes many climbers are very aware and responsible, but not all. Just like the "tourists."
So that's this Pirates 2 cents.
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pirateclimber
Oct 28, 2003, 8:27 AM
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I just realized that I've met and know all of you, Beth, James, Mike, Gabe. Hahaha! Bring on the flames! I'll fight ya next time I see you. Well, except Gabe will probably be hanging off a wall somewhere, Mike would suck all the O2 outta the room, and James is too old, so that just leaves you and me Beth! I'm gonna marklar you up!
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socalclimber
Oct 28, 2003, 1:36 PM
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Here is the link for INFORMATION that is accurate.
http://www.rockclimbing.com/...iewtopic.php?t=42980
Why is this in Injuries & Accidents?
BTW, this is not coming from the powers that be at JT NPS, this was federaly mandated around 10 years ago for ALL parks. There is nothing the local infrastructure can do.
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maculated
Oct 28, 2003, 5:14 PM
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maculated moved this thread from Injuries & Accidents to Regional Discussions.
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rogueclimber
Oct 28, 2003, 9:10 PM
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In reply to: I just realized that I've met and know all of you, Beth, James, Mike, Gabe. Hahaha! Bring on the flames! I'll fight ya next time I see you. Well, except Gabe will probably be hanging off a wall somewhere, Mike would suck all the O2 outta the room, and James is too old, so that just leaves you and me Beth! I'm gonna marklar you up!
Haaa! Mate! It does seem we may have boarded the same vessel once er twice! I have the ear o'the captain n' I'll see to it yer earning take a cut. It seems yav got extra gold ta bee throwin out! :)
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crotch
Oct 28, 2003, 9:36 PM
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Beth,
Write a letter to your elected representatives and let them know how you feel, along with voicing your opinion here. I've written a letter to my senators and congresswoman. You should do the same. The legislature controls how our tax dollars are spent.
The letter I wrote is here http://www.rockclimbing.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=42732. You are welcome to borrow from it.
Cheers,
Crotch
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josher
Oct 28, 2003, 9:58 PM
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not trying to start a fight, and I dont really have the brain power (bad day) to argue, but why do you think "we" own the place just cuz we pay taxes? Using that logic, I do own the whole damn road. Dosnt mean I can I can park in the middle of the "freeway" just cuz I own it.
And if it isnt the climbers making all the spider trails (itnt that what there called) then who is, not the foggie in the winny.
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crotch
Oct 28, 2003, 10:10 PM
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In reply to: not trying to start a fight, and I dont really have the brain power (bad day) to argue, but why do you think "we" own the place just cuz we pay taxes?
Here's why. Public land is "owned" by the public, of which I am a member. As such, I have the right to tell my elected representative how I want this public land to be managed, and how I want my tax dollars to be spent. Since I haven't been convicted of a felony yet, I also have the right to vote for someone else if my current reps don't follow my wishes. Simple as that.
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howdidshedothat
Oct 28, 2003, 10:19 PM
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:? why is it so hard for everyone to just respect each other and not be so negative? No matter how you look at it, fees are going to go up, it's just a part of life. there are bad apples in every group, but, for the most part, people are cool
My two cents 8)
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josher
Oct 28, 2003, 10:47 PM
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so using that logic, someone who pays higher taxes has priorty to the camp sites.
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crotch
Oct 28, 2003, 10:52 PM
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In reply to: so using that logic, someone who pays higher taxes has priorty to the camp sites.
Are you purposefully obstinate, a troll, or just retarded?
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josher
Oct 28, 2003, 10:54 PM
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was going to ask you the same.
bet you dont think we landed on the moon either
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crotch
Oct 28, 2003, 11:02 PM
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In reply to: was going to ask you the same. bet you dont think we landed on the moon either
It just seems that your sense of logic is a bit askew. How do you extrapolate from here:
In reply to: I have the right to tell my elected representative how I want this public land to be managed, and how I want my tax dollars to be spent. Since I haven't been convicted of a felony yet, I also have the right to vote for someone else if my current reps don't follow my wishes. Simple as that.
to here:
In reply to: so using that logic, someone who pays higher taxes has priorty to the camp sites.
If you've extrapolated that from my statement using logic, you can surely show the steps of logic you took to get from point A to point B?
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moabbeth
Oct 29, 2003, 12:24 AM
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In reply to: I just realized that I've met and know all of you, Beth, James, Mike, Gabe. Hahaha! Bring on the flames! I'll fight ya next time I see you. Well, except Gabe will probably be hanging off a wall somewhere, Mike would suck all the O2 outta the room, and James is too old, so that just leaves you and me Beth! I'm gonna marklar you up!
Oh man dude, don't Marklar my marklar! :lol: :lol:
Your marklars are wise and valid, but I stand by my original marklar that the marklars of others are marklaring the issues at hand. When others marklar, it makes us marklars look bad. And I still do not believe the marklar that this is "good" for all us of cause the motives of the marklars in Washington DC are INCREDIBLY suspect to me.
Ok, other than Dave and Joe, anyone else who watches South Park should be able to decipher that message clearly :wink: .
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vicum
Oct 29, 2003, 1:57 AM
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Using your logic, people who pay more taxes have a greater entitlement to protection by our military from foreign attack. People who pay more taxes are entitled to drive on more of the road. People who pay more taxes have automatic preference in court. Et cetera et cetera. Sorry, but your logic is extremely flawed. We all pay different taxes, but have the same protection and service of our government. That's just the way it works. Call it wealfare if you want, but the amount that one is serviced by the government is in no way linearly related to the amount of taxes one pays.
I believe that making anybody pay to enter any kind of public land is wrong. We have already collectivly paid for the land, and now are being charged a fee to use. It's just like if you had to send in an extra $2500 for protection if the United States were invaded. If you didn't pay they would protect your neighbor, but not you. It doesn't work that way and we all know it.
Of course, the argument could be made that only a small fraction of the population actually uses public land. However, we all pay taxes, but we don't all receive a wealfare check. We all pay taxes, but not all have children in school. The fact is, the government funds a plethora of things in which many have no interest, but are still taxed to fund. Public lands should be no different.
Quite frankly, I think congress has it's priorties wrong. However, the only way to change that is if YOU vote, and YOU let your elected representatives know what you want. Otherwise, the AARP is going to continue to have the most attentive ear with congress, and thus the most benefits granted to it-including scores of RV(who do you think drives them?) spots concreted over you old favorite campground.
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moabbeth
Oct 29, 2003, 2:16 AM
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In reply to: Of course, the argument could be made that only a small fraction of the population actually uses public land. However, we all pay taxes, but we don't all receive a wealfare check. We all pay taxes, but not all have children in school. The fact is, the government funds a plethora of things in which many have no interest, but are still taxed to fund. Public lands should be no different. Quite frankly, I think congress has it's priorties wrong. However, the only way to change that is if YOU vote, and YOU let your elected representatives know what you want. Otherwise, the AARP is going to continue to have the most attentive ear with congress, and thus the most benefits granted to it-including scores of RV(who do you think drives them?) spots concreted over you old favorite campground.
Your marklars are wise and true.
It really is up to us to let our reps know how we feel, cause vicum's point about the RV driving crowd is really accurate. Rock climbers don't even have a lobbying group, let alone one as well funded as AARP. There are a lot of changes going on involving our national parks and almost ALL of them are not going to be beneficial to the climbing community, if anything the changes will be detrimental. We pay taxes just like anyone else and deserve to have our opinions matter.
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