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curt


Nov 2, 2003, 1:47 PM
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Depends on what they're doing. If it's damaging the rock or surroundings, confront them firmly, and if they give you any grief, beat them with a stick.

If it's inconsiderate or obnoxious but not destructive, it depends on whether you can ignore it, want to move or get in their face. Making fun of the is always an option too.

If it's a matter of preference or style, like someone getting hauled up a slab by his belayer, best to shake your head and move on.

I think Ron's post here sums up my attitude pretty well. If I see a climber doing something that looks a bit non-kosher, I will first decide whether their behavior is truly "unethical" or merely some form of poor climbing style. By my definition unethical behavior is something that changes the character of the route or boulder problem for all subsequent ascentionists. Poor style is merely some form of cheating to get up the route.

I will certainly ream somebody performing the former act, but will usually not say anything about the latter--unless I am asked.

Curt


youmeanupthere


Oct 27, 2003, 11:03 PM
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How do you respond when you hear/see someone doing something you consider unethical? With all things considered, everyone and everyplace has different standards. Base your answer on your own standard.


galt


Oct 27, 2003, 11:23 PM
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In all seriousness if it involves quickdraws on a route I'm going to beat someone in the head with a cam.
Approach them and tell point out why you think what they are doing might be unethical... they may simply not know any better. If they ignore you (which might happen) just walk away... unless it involves quickdraws on a route then bash their head in with a cam.


alwaysforward


Oct 28, 2003, 12:27 AM
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"Climbing is, above all, a matter of integrity."
-Gaston Rebufatt


Really think about that one.


overlord


Oct 28, 2003, 2:23 AM
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try to politely point out what are they doing wrong (like steping on bolts...) because they might simply not know that theyre doing something wrong, if they ignore you, just walk away. theyre not worth bothering


gat


Oct 28, 2003, 6:32 AM
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Depends on the vibe I pick up from the person. If they seem receptive then I'll discuss it with them, if not I move on.

Here is something I witnessed...My friend and I offered to show "friends of a friend" a local mtn bike trail system. When we stopped for a break, one of the guys smoked a cig, put it out on his shoe and threw it on the ground. Immediately my buddy politely points out to him that's really not acceptable, and to please put it in his pocket and throw it in the trash at the car. The smoker says no way, not picking it up and putting the dirty butt in his pocket. My buddy, again politely, says that it is a seriously unacceptable practice. In an attempt to let the guy know how much we disapprove, he tells him we pick up other people's litter when we see it. So, the smoker says "fine, you can pick up my cig butt and carry it out". That was the breaking point. My friend walks over to him and face to face lets him know if he doesn't pick it up, he is going to get his a$$ kicked. Realizing it would be much easier to pick it up than deal w/ my friend. He picked it up and put it in his pocket.


dingus


Oct 28, 2003, 7:11 AM
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If the offending party isn't hurting anything or anyone (like standing on a bolt), I most likely wouldn't say a thing unless asked. I susually try to mind my own business and standing on a bolt just doesn't rate in my book. But if the unethical act involves destructive or potentially dangerous behaviors I'd have to say something, I'd find a way to say something.

See, I have kids. If THEY were doing something stupid at a crag I'd want YOU to say something to them. Just know that I will do the same for your kids.

But there's another side... what if the unethical person is an old dog, an obviously experienced and good climber, perhaps far more experienced and skilled a climber than you. Are you going to challenge them about standing on that bolt?

I think we all must have at least once offered some well meaning but mildly condescending advice to some noob only to realize it was like Peter Croft or someone we were preaching too.

Well, maybe not to you. But ME for sure! (open mouth, insert both feet, close mouth, munch)

DMT


herm


Oct 28, 2003, 8:32 AM
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Do you ever run into folks on top of the crag that offer to show you the "easy way up"?


rockprodigy


Oct 28, 2003, 8:43 AM
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I think we all must have at least once offered some well meaning but mildly condescending advice to some noob only to realize it was like Peter Croft or someone we were preaching too.

Well, maybe not to you. But ME for sure! (open mouth, insert both feet, close mouth, munch)

DMT

Ha!

Last year, during the festival, I was at the Ouray Ice Park, between the bridges in the "lead-only area". I had just topped out a route, and saw this guy lower his partner in to TR a route. I kindly informed him that this area was for leading only....

It was Conrad Anker...he was belaying...Kim Csizmazia. She was trying to warm up before the comp.

Doh!

Later on in the weekend, I learned that the boundaries for the "lead only area" had been changed since the previous year, and they were actually in the right spot to TR.

Doh! Doh!

I like to keep my mouth shut now.


dingus


Oct 28, 2003, 8:46 AM
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Counseling Conrad Anker eh? That's a good one! (No CONRAD, you HOLD the ice ax LIKE THIS!!!) Did you tell him to stop picking at dead bodies on high mountains while you were at it??111

Lol!

DMT


taraus_de_bull


Oct 28, 2003, 9:03 AM
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If the person is doing something that is unethical and dangrous, i would for sure say something. But if its just unethical, it really depends on the action at hand, and the vibe from the person. If its just someone littering and they are loud and obnoxious, i'd rather just pick up the trash myself then make a seen. Because the person would seem have very little ethics and he certainly would just defend himself from my interjecting rather then him actually being a porper human being and picking it up. But the person seems nice, i would simple approach him with it, chances are he'd be reseasonable.

So i've seen several people mention "standing on a bolt" Could someone please explain why this is bad? I don't sport much, haven't really heard this one before. Is it bad for the bolt? or is just not polite to do so?

Thanks.


robmcc


Oct 28, 2003, 9:33 AM
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Do you ever run into folks on top of the crag that offer to show you the "easy way up"?

Not after I offer to show them the quick way down.

*HEAVE*

AAAAAAAAAAAaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa........................


vertical_reality


Oct 28, 2003, 9:48 AM
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Did you tell him to stop picking at dead bodies on high mountains while you were at it??

:lol: :lol: :lol:


ropeburn


Oct 28, 2003, 9:50 AM
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^^^^^^^^^^

Thats great!!!

:lol:
:lol:

:mrgreen:


blueeyedclimber


Oct 28, 2003, 10:47 AM
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So i've seen several people mention "standing on a bolt" Could someone please explain why this is bad? I don't sport much, haven't really heard this one before. Is it bad for the bolt? or is just not polite to do so?

Thanks.

It is a form of cheating and looked down on in the community. If I see it, I wouldn't really care unless that same person comes up to me bragging about his onsight. Then I would say "I don't believe that bolt is on route, but if it is, 'Nice job, man!'"

Josh


youmeanupthere


Oct 28, 2003, 1:04 PM
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Addressing ethical issues with someone who doesn't adhere to your standards is difficult. First of all, ethics have very hazy definitions in climbing, or so it seems to me. Secondly, and with what I have the most trouble, is the fact that if you see someone doing something unethical then they probably don't care to begin with. Confronting the problem does no good. In fact it only incites them to "rebel" or continue whatever it is they are doing.

Let me share an example. I know this individual (by no means a friend) who thinks his climbing ability justifies his actions. He can redpoint sport routes into the 14's and boulders in the double digits, occasionally. He is a good climber in terms of technical ability but, to his discredit, he has chipped routes. When asked about it he presents a myriad of responses which include minimizing his deeds by saying, "it was only one route," or by criticizing "old, out-dated" standards by saying that current "ethics only get in the way of climbing hard." He also cites examples of chipping and "aggressive cleaning" done by other professional climbers in the past. Another excuse includes equivocating nailing with chipping. He'll state that nailing damages the rock by creating pin scars which makes the route freeable which ultimately leads to the same end even if the means is different.

Now I know there are thinking errors involved in all of these excuses, but, to point that out and discuss the issue reasonably and logically does no good. I also know that people with excuses tend to have an endless supply of excuses. So how would you handle such a situation?


mungeclimber


Oct 28, 2003, 1:10 PM
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Addressing ethical issues with someone who doesn't adhere to your standards is difficult. First of all, ethics have very hazy definitions in climbing, or so it seems to me. Secondly, and with what I have the most trouble, is the fact that if you see someone doing something unethical then they probably don't care to begin with. Confronting the problem does no good. In fact it only incites them to "rebel" or continue whatever it is they are doing.

Let me share an example. I know this individual (by no means a friend) who thinks his climbing ability justifies his actions. He can redpoint sport routes into the 14's and boulders in the double digits, occasionally. He is a good climber in terms of technical ability but, to his discredit, he has chipped routes. When asked about it he presents a myriad of responses which include minimizing his deeds by saying, "it was only one route," or by criticizing "old, out-dated" standards by saying that current "ethics only get in the way of climbing hard." He also cites examples of chipping and "aggressive cleaning" done by other professional climbers in the past. Another excuse includes equivocating nailing with chipping. He'll state that nailing damages the rock by creating pin scars which makes the route freeable which ultimately leads to the same end even if the means is different.

Now I know there are thinking errors involved in all of these excuses, but, to point that out and discuss the issue reasonably and logically does no good. I also know that people with excuses tend to have an endless supply of excuses. So how would you handle such a situation?


Unless the area where he puts routes up is a quarry, post his name up publicly so we can chastise him into realizing he is weak for having a lack of integrity that robs others of the chance to do the line without the chipped or modified hold.


youmeanupthere


Oct 29, 2003, 10:28 AM
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As much as I would like to blast anybody who behaves this way and publicly humiliate them, I would also like to seek a solution. I have noticed that public humiliation does not necessarily change how they act besides encouraging them to do everything on the sly. They are less likely to gloat about their most recent hard climbing exploits on chipped rocks unless if they are in the right crowd.

Another concern I have is that newer, younger, easily influenced climbers who haven't been schooled on the dos and donts of rock climbing see what a good climber he is and then strive to emulate him. It doesn't matter if they actually see or hear what he does but they learn an attitude or approach to climbing that leads to the same behavior.


ronamick


Oct 31, 2003, 1:09 AM
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Depends on what they're doing. If it's damaging the rock or surroundings, confront them firmly, and if they give you any grief, beat them with a stick.

If it's inconsiderate or obnoxious but not destructive, it depends on whether you can ignore it, want to move or get in their face. Making fun of the is always an option too.

If it's a matter of preference or style, like someone getting hauled up a slab by his belayer, best to shake your head and move on.


elron


Oct 31, 2003, 5:46 AM
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As others have said, if someone is doing something damaging to the rock (i.e. chipping), against local traditions (i.e. placing a bolt at the gunks), or just plain bad (walking off with another climbers stuff), then I think we all have a responsibility to say something.
However, there is a difference between "ethics" and "good style". If someone wants to step on a bolt, then by all means, let them step on it. Last time I checked, this was referred to as A0 (french free), not unethical. If someone wants to pre-hang quickdraws on a 5.5 sport climb, go right ahead. If someone wants to hang on a rope for an hour working a move, and they aren't blocking anyone else's access to the climb, then i have no problem with that either. I don't mind "ethics police" protecting our rock. I do have something against "style police" telling other people how to climb

Kevin


thehardnailer


Oct 31, 2003, 10:52 PM
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How do you respond when you hear/see someone doing something you consider unethical? With all things considered, everyone and everyplace has different standards. Base your answer on your own standard.
This is the great thing about being an "Old Poop" I"ve been around long enough to not be afraid to open my big mouth and call B.S. on things that people pull. I'm not saying be an ass, but if you see someone doing something that you feel is un-ethical you may be the first person (only person) who ever pointed out the error of this persons ways. If I hadent gotten involved in a local land use issue (someone decided to turn Rock Canyon, Provo, Ut.) into a rock quarry. I felt like I was totaly by myself but after being the squeeky wheel for a month we got the Mayor's office to file charges and stop the work. Go for it!


nonick


Nov 1, 2003, 12:52 AM
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The only ethic I would ever comment about is probably environmental..

If you want to cheat while climbing thats your headache..who are you climbing for anyway?

I climb for myself, and the one person you cannot fool ever is your own self..


dingus


Nov 1, 2003, 7:09 AM
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I climb for myself, and the one person you cannot fool ever is your own self..

What are you kidding nonick? My friend, you will find your self is the easiest of all to dupe! You can lie, cheat and steal from the poor bastard and he keeps coming back, like some hapless cur.

Fooling your self? Easy as pie my friend, easy as pie.

How else could we climb?

Eh?

DMT


brutusofwyde


Nov 1, 2003, 7:41 AM
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So i've seen several people mention "standing on a bolt" Could someone please explain why this is bad?

It is a form of cheating and looked down on in the community. If I see it, I wouldn't really care unless that same person comes up to me bragging about his onsight. Then I would say "I don't believe that bolt is on route, but if it is, 'Nice job, man!'"

Standing on a bolt is cheating? News to me, my man. What about yarding on a pin, hanging from axe leashes, taking tension, rehearsing crux moves, hanging off a string of #1 copperheads, drilling a rivet ladder, establishing a bolted route on rappel, bolting a car hood ornament on a smooth blank section of rock, hauling a compressor up Cerro Torre, using a stack of stones to bypass a reach problem right off the deck, hauling around crash pads, undermining a boulder to uncover footholds, sculpting fingerlocks by placing and removing pins, digging moss out of a splitter hand crack, trundling loose blocks that the FA party bypassed on aid to claim a first ascent, or batmanning up the rope?

imho It all depends on the game you're playing. Last time I stood on a bolt, it was to drill another, higher bolt to protect a beautiful 5.10 slab pitch 1,200 feet off the deck on a remote wilderness wall. How is that cheating compared to establishing the same route with the use of fixed ropes and rap drilling from top to bottom?

Lying, whether to others or one's self, is cheating, and sometimes dangerous as well.
Hurting others is cheating.
Being selfish at the expense of the rest of the world is cheating.

Standing on a bolt can be a beautiful and enlightened act.

Brutus


beaner_says_hi


Nov 2, 2003, 1:04 PM
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How do you respond when you hear/see someone doing something you consider unethical? With all things considered, everyone and everyplace has different standards. Base your answer on your own standard.

I guess it would depend on what he is doing and what vibes I'm getting. Some people really are worth it. Usually they're the ones making minor mistakes out of ignorance. They'd appreciate knowing there's an ethic against what they're doing or appreciate it if you give them a nudge when they're doing something they're going to be upset about later.

On the other hand there truly is such a thing as casting pearls. I don't bother with this.

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