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rwaltermyer
Oct 23, 2003, 2:27 PM
Post #51 of 67
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In reply to: What if the free solo guys sat at the crag and told all the trad guys they can't use their gear there because it can be free solo'd?
Well said.
I swore that I was done with thread. But to Kagunkie, do you know Mitch? He's a very responsible local, IMO. I understand that you [Kagunkie] are just trying to get answers, but if you don't know him, then your facts are skewed too.
Anyway. Let me make a case for Mitch.
1st, in regards to the FAer, Neversink has been climbed for years. It could have been in the 19th century for all we know. And with Neversink being as small as it is, the FAer (if he's still alive) is no where to be found. C'mon it wasn't a five-star, classic route we're talking about here.
2nd, the route couldn't be led with trad, it was an unprotected face.
3rd, Mitch consulted the owner (the next best move after being unable to contact the FAer)
4th, the previous hole scars could have been from the same idiot who ripped Mitch's bolts out, so don't blame those on Mitch.
And 5th, and most importantly: if I just blew up Neversink with some TNT this morning, no one would know about it until next week sometime. The place is terrible. Nothing more than a local--VERY LOCAL-- crag. So who cares?! What the big deal? (This argument would NOT stand by itself as a case to bolt, only when considering Neversink, and the previous four statements.)
When this is considered with the previous four arguments (which are obviously more ethically correct) one can see that Mitch didn't do anything wrong.
randy
PS. Kagunkie: its been a while since you've been on RC.com. Nice to hear from you again (although, not in this particular thread)
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kagunkie
Oct 25, 2003, 3:05 AM
Post #52 of 67
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Just a few comments and a request to have my questions answered.
In reply to: What if the free solo guys sat at the crag and told all the trad guys they can't use their gear there because it can be free solo'd?
This question is irrelevant since the argument is about drilling holes into the rock and you don't drill holes to place clean gear.
Nobody cares what style you climb in as long as it doesn't damage the rock.
In reply to: But to Kagunkie, do you know Mitch? He's a very responsible local, IMO. I understand that you [Kagunkie] are just trying to get answers, but if you don't know him, then your facts are skewed too.
I do know Mitch, he's a great guy and I like him very much but I have to concider that at this time last year he was afraid to climb a hundred feet of 5.5 on toprope and has only been climbing for two years or so. This makes it painfully clear that he is definitely not experienced enough to make the decision to forever change the nature of this or any other cliff. (it's not personal it's just a fact as much as it might hurt to face) it takes a long time (many years) to develop the experience and insight to make these decisions without making mistakes, and thats what he did make a mistake we all make them it's not unusual just something to be learned from. Sadly the rock and nature of the climb is forever changed from his mistake. Everyone who has climbed that face will never again have the privelage of climbing the same climb they origionally climbed now that it is marred by the addition of those holes, that climb is degraded for all time.
My facts are definitely not skewed.
In reply to: 1st, in regards to the FAer, Neversink has been climbed for years. It could have been in the 19th century for all we know. And with Neversink being as small as it is, the FAer (if he's still alive) is no where to be found. C'mon it wasn't a five-star, classic route we're talking about here.
You're right it has been climbed for years without any bolts.The first assenter is still alive and well. Wether he cares or not is a different question. you're right its not a five star mega classic but it is the best line there and deserves to be treated with respect on it's own merit.
In reply to: 2nd, the route couldn't be led with trad, it was an unprotected face.
In reply to: 3rd, Mitch consulted the owner (the next best move after being unable to contact the FAer)
In reply to: 4th, the previous hole scars could have been from the same idiot who ripped Mitch's bolts out, so don't blame those on Mitch.
Why would someone after removing bolts drill more holes next to the ones left behind by the first bolts? By his own admission the holes were there before he added the new ones. get you're facts straight.
In reply to: And 5th, and most importantly: if I just blew up Neversink with some TNT this morning, no one would know about it until next week sometime. The place is terrible. Nothing more than a local--VERY LOCAL-- crag. So who cares?! What the big deal? (This argument would NOT stand by itself as a case to bolt, only when considering Neversink, and the previous four statements.)
Wether you climb there three times a week or once every three years it's still a valuable resource that should be respected. How many other cliffs of equal or better quality are there within a twenty mile radius?
Who cares?! I do and so do others, evidently you're not among them.
In reply to: PS. Kagunkie: its been a while since you've been on RC.com. Nice to hear from you again (although, not in this particular thread)
i've been around just not seeing much here worth taking the time to read.
Though I thank you for you're input.
My few questions are still not answered so just to avoid confusion here they are again.
Mitch said... "I drilled only ONE hole for each bolt. The other holes were already there."
(1) Why didn't you use the holes that were already there instead of drilling more?
Mitch said... "As for "playing with a new toy", I did all my "playing" on little defenseless rocks in my back woods."
(2) How can you expect to add holes to a cliff and not get blamed for other damage/holes already existing there?
Mitch said... "Had they been really worried about what it looked like,they would have filled the offensive holes when they were done.
(3)Why didn't you fill those holes yourself since you were the one who decided that the cliff needed to be "fixed" and were already working there.
Mitch said... "How come I don't hear any WHINING about "Orange Sunshine" being bolted? It is,after all,a crack.
(4)Why would you bring up the subject of a totally different area? Have you forgotten we are talking about the cliff at Neversink and what was done to IT. Are you the one who bolted Orange sunshine?
Mitch said... "As for permission, I got permission to bolt the rock from The Berks Conservancy,of which I am a member. They own nearly all of Neversink Mountain. This was done with a very detailed discussion on the ethics of bolting,as well as the reason I wanted to bolt a line that was easily climbable as a teaching route."
(5) Who was the authority on climbing ethics you all consulted for this discussion? It must have been a group of very experienced climbers to be qualified to convey the intricacys and long history of American climbing ethics and to come to a reasonable consensus.
(6) How did you drill those holes? Do you own an electric drill?
(7) Where els do you plan to drill?
I hope your not planning to bolt any more existing routes.
Don't get me wrong I'm just trying to get to the truth here and possibly educate a few people.
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kagunkie
Oct 27, 2003, 9:36 PM
Post #53 of 67
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In reply to: Hi, I drilled only ONE hole for each bolt. The other holes were already there. This can be verified if you just ask climbracer.As for "playing with a new toy", I did all my "playing" on little defenseless rocks in my back woods.Whoever pulled my bolts might as well have done the flourescent painting as the holes they left behind look WAY worse than the color matching anchors I installed. Had they been really worried about what it looked like,they would have filled the offensive holes when they were done.I can't believe (someone I know) would bash me without knowing the facts in the matter! Thanks for your support Randy. How come I don't hear any WHINING about "Orange Sunshine" being bolted? It is,after all,a crack. Mitch
My few questions are still not answered so just to avoid confusion here they are again.
Mitch said... "I drilled only ONE hole for each bolt. The other holes were already there."
(1) Why didn't you use the holes that were already there instead of drilling more?
Mitch said... "As for "playing with a new toy", I did all my "playing" on little defenseless rocks in my back woods."
(2) How can you expect to add holes to a cliff and not get blamed for other damage/holes already existing there?
Mitch said... "Had they been really worried about what it looked like,they would have filled the offensive holes when they were done.
(3)Why didn't you fill those holes yourself since you were the one who decided that the cliff needed to be "fixed" and were already working there.
Mitch said... "How come I don't hear any WHINING about "Orange Sunshine" being bolted? It is,after all,a crack.
(4)Why would you bring up the subject of a totally different area? Have you forgotten we are talking about the cliff at Neversink and what was done to IT. Are you the one who bolted Orange sunshine?
Mitch said... "As for permission, I got permission to bolt the rock from The Berks Conservancy,of which I am a member. They own nearly all of Neversink Mountain. This was done with a very detailed discussion on the ethics of bolting,as well as the reason I wanted to bolt a line that was easily climbable as a teaching route."
(5) Who was the authority on climbing ethics you all consulted for this discussion? It must have been a group of very experienced climbers to be qualified to convey the intricacys and long history of American climbing ethics and to come to a reasonable consensus.
(6) How did you drill those holes? Do you own an electric drill?
(7) Where els do you plan to drill?
I hope your not planning to bolt any more existing routes.
Don't get me wrong I'm just trying to get to the truth here and possibly educate a few people.
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climbinganne
Oct 27, 2003, 10:12 PM
Post #54 of 67
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WOW!!!
my head hurts
and my dog was skunked
and *shock* keith is learning bbcode
group f*cking hug already
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kagunkie
Oct 27, 2003, 10:57 PM
Post #55 of 67
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Hi Anne nice to hear from you. All I want are the answers to my questions. Is that too much to ask? :?:
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climb_plastic
Oct 27, 2003, 11:15 PM
Post #56 of 67
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In reply to: In reply to: What if the free solo guys sat at the crag and told all the trad guys they can't use their gear there because it can be free solo'd? This question is irrelevant since the argument is about drilling holes into the rock and you don't drill holes to place clean gear. Nobody cares what style you climb in as long as it doesn't damage the rock. |
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kagunkie
Oct 27, 2003, 11:36 PM
Post #57 of 67
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In reply to: Someone got permission to bolt and so they bolted and then someone else came along and removed the bolts because he thought they shouldn't be there because it can be climbed with pro. The bolts are already there so what good does it do to remove them? All climbing can damage rock...including using pro or even free solo so that can't be the issue.
How do you know what the person was thinking without asking them personally?
I agree with the bolts removal, though I don't know the persons reasoning behind what they did I have my own reasons wich are listed above.
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climbinganne
Oct 27, 2003, 11:55 PM
Post #58 of 67
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In reply to: Hi Anne nice to hear from you. All I want are the answers to my questions. Is that too much to ask? :?:
and always gneiss to see you ;)
In reply to: I agree with the bolts removal
the last statement says everything keith...
i have never climbed neversink...i remember when mitch was in the process
so does kathy, i am sure she can fill you in more than i can
i am not getting in the middle of this
we all have trusted our lives to each other
let's just agree to disagree
maybe you two should get together - WTF????
you owe each other more than that
++ postcount for male testosterone
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rwaltermyer
Oct 28, 2003, 12:32 AM
Post #59 of 67
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In reply to: i am not getting in the middle of this
I should have taken the high road too... but i couldn't stand all of these battering on Mitch w/o the facts. (Which I don't know, either. So I'm checking out too).
I'd say its pretty fair to say that these thread won't resolve this controversy anytime soon.
randy
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climb_plastic
Oct 28, 2003, 2:22 AM
Post #60 of 67
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In reply to: How do you know what the person was thinking without asking them personally? I agree with the bolts removal, though I don't know the persons reasoning behind what they did I have my own reasons wich are listed above.
Why else would he do it? You said earlier that rock damage was the issue but if the guy is so worried about rock damage then how would removing the bolts help. Leaving the bolts there just means that less people would use pro on the route thus saving the the rock from further damage.
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kagunkie
Oct 29, 2003, 2:44 AM
Post #61 of 67
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Well it seems as though suficient time has passed for Mitch to reply to my questions here but maby he didnt see them yet so I'll give it one more try.
Here they are again...
These questions are directed expressly to Mitch, please no one els need reply.
Mitch said... "I drilled only ONE hole for each bolt. The other holes were already there."
(1) Why didn't you use the holes that were already there instead of drilling more?
Mitch said... "As for "playing with a new toy", I did all my "playing" on little defenseless rocks in my back woods."
(2) How can you expect to add holes to a cliff and not get blamed for other damage/holes already existing there?
Mitch said... "Had they been really worried about what it looked like,they would have filled the offensive holes when they were done.
(3)Why didn't you fill those holes yourself since you were the one who decided that the cliff needed to be "fixed" and were already working there.
Mitch said... "How come I don't hear any WHINING about "Orange Sunshine" being bolted? It is,after all,a crack.
(4)Why would you bring up the subject of a totally different area? Have you forgotten we are talking about the cliff at Neversink and what was done to IT. Are you the one who bolted Orange sunshine?
Mitch said... "As for permission, I got permission to bolt the rock from The Berks Conservancy,of which I am a member. They own nearly all of Neversink Mountain. This was done with a very detailed discussion on the ethics of bolting,as well as the reason I wanted to bolt a line that was easily climbable as a teaching route."
(5) Who was the authority on climbing ethics you all consulted for this discussion? It must have been a group of very experienced climbers to be qualified to convey the intricacys and long history of American climbing ethics and to come to a reasonable consensus.
(6) How did you drill those holes? Do you own an electric drill?
(7) Where els do you plan to drill?
I hope your not planning to bolt any more existing routes.
Don't get me wrong I'm just trying to get to the truth here and possibly educate a few people.
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socalclimber
Oct 30, 2003, 3:29 AM
Post #63 of 67
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The 1st and 2nd looked like a botched job by a gumby with a power drill. The third is too hard to tell, but I am guessing it's the same. Did Mitch drill all those holes, or did he drill new ones??
Also, even if he did not drill the other holes, why did he not fill them? :twisted:
Some of those holes look very suspect in terms of "hand drilled". You would have to really work to get that kind of taper on the edge from a hand drill. Who's been playing with power tools? :shock:
Sorry, I just don't have time to read the whole 5 page thread. What's the truth here?
Robert
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rwaltermyer
Oct 30, 2003, 1:34 PM
Post #64 of 67
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Now wait a second.
I initally looked at these pictures and didn't think anything of it, but OBVIOUSLY, you took these shoot BEFORE the bolts were chopped. (And were ticked (& pretty motivated) to take those pictures.
Keith, forgive me for pointing the finger (but no one has asked yet)...
Did you chop the bolts?
If not. I apologize.
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overlord
Oct 30, 2003, 2:07 PM
Post #65 of 67
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In reply to: 2. Permission from whom? Is it the relevant community? There are often many small groups within a single local area that visit just on weekends, some just weekdays. You may never cross paths, except by bolt. And not everyone is online either.
it doesnt matter what the community thinks. the ONLY permission that matters is that of the FAer. so if whoever did the FA allowed the bolts to be added its ok, no matter what the community says, and if the FAer said that he cant bolt its wron even if the wole world say its OK.
if he got the permission from the FAer, nobody should pull the bolts. if the dont like it, maybe they should make the FA themselves.
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kagunkie
Oct 30, 2003, 2:31 PM
Post #66 of 67
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In reply to: Now wait a second. I initally looked at these pictures and didn't think anything of it, but OBVIOUSLY, you took these shoot BEFORE the bolts were chopped. (And were ticked (& pretty motivated) to take those pictures. Keith, forgive me for pointing the finger (but no one has asked yet)... Did you chop the bolts? If not. I apologize.
No it wasn't me but yes I was definately pretty shocked to see what was done there and just happend to have my camera with me as I usually do when I go climbing.
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kagunkie
Nov 1, 2003, 3:16 AM
Post #67 of 67
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Too bad...
[violet]COWARDICE[/violet] under fire is a common affliction of weenie bolters. I knew there was no way you'd be able to give a relevant answer to my questions. maybe you should consider a new hobby.
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