|
minotaur
Nov 3, 2003, 10:17 PM
Post #1 of 94
(5669 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 3, 2003
Posts: 2
|
Am I the only one who thinks that pounding a sh--load of pins on a wall that essentially goes clean is pathetic? Or bootying a cam, promising to give it back, then deciding to be a prick and not to? Luckily the owner did, eventually, get his cam back. Use clean gear when possible. They're called ethics.
|
|
|
|
|
madcowrockclimber
Nov 3, 2003, 10:21 PM
Post #2 of 94
(5669 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 10, 2002
Posts: 107
|
not bad not bad at all but if i jumped into climbing with both feet tied togerther in the deepend whith lead wieghts tied to my ankles i would have gone for devils tower. 8) :lol:
|
|
|
|
|
epic_ed
Nov 3, 2003, 10:51 PM
Post #3 of 94
(5669 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 17, 2002
Posts: 4724
|
In reply to: Am I the only one who thinks that pounding a sh--load of pins on a wall that essentially goes clean is pathetic? Or bootying a cam, promising to give it back, then deciding to be a prick and not to? Luckily the owner did, eventually, get his cam back. Use clean gear when possible. They're called ethics.
I think most would agree that it's not the best style that route could have gone in, but it was the best style Ricardo could send it in at this time. From the TRs I've seen in the past year about Zodiac, I'd say the success rate for keeping the ascent totally clean on this one is less than 50%. A lot of parties choose to use LAs or KBs on the pitch above black tower. Does this mean Ricardo is less bad-assed than those who climb it completely clean? Yep. Probably so. Do you think he gives an F how bad-assed you or I think he is? Nope. Nor should he. Suppose you're gonna give him crap about using a cheat stick, too?
Ed
|
|
|
|
|
ricardol
Nov 3, 2003, 11:10 PM
Post #4 of 94
(5669 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 11, 2002
Posts: 1050
|
In reply to: Am I the only one who thinks that pounding a sh--load of pins on a wall that essentially goes clean is pathetic? Or bootying a cam, promising to give it back, then deciding to be a prick and not to? Luckily the owner did, eventually, get his cam back. Use clean gear when possible. They're called ethics.
whatever .. i pounded 12 pins on the route.. i wouldn't call that a shitload .. 7 of those pins went into the black tower (3 below the actual tower on the final ramp) .. which i climbed in the dark ... if you're calling me 'sackless' for pounding 4 pins above the black tower on my first big wall while climbing in the dark (and never had nailed before in my life) .. then your sack must go down to the floor.
about your gear.. whatever dude -- you got your gold camalot back .. if you're still pissed because i was talking smack on the radio with dave about all the booty i found, then too bad .. -- i always meant to return the gear i had told you that i'd found .. (the gold camalot and a few biners.. -- which you got back)
i returned about $70 worth of gear back to you .. what gives? --
-- ricardo
i suppose you're still mad because i didn' tell you about the red camalot i cleaned off the final pitch. or the 3 brand new shoulder length slings, or the locking biner you left behind on the belay.
.. the route is not hard to clean.. if you can't clean it, i am not obligated to clean it for you.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
ricardol
Nov 4, 2003, 12:30 AM
Post #6 of 94
(5669 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 11, 2002
Posts: 1050
|
should i set the record straight? or not? .. ummm
alright --- i'll bite .. for the record..
I placed 12 pins on zodiac total.
7 of them on the black tower pitch -- 3 of those below the pointy part of the tower .. that leaves 4 pins on pitch 7 above the tower .. i led the the pitch above the tower in the dark.. zodiac is a nailing route .. even though it has gone clean. (or just ask the dude who broke his pelvis on the black tower in may about it)
pitch 8 received 1 pin from my ascent -- albeit it was unnecesary ..
.. i bootied some of your gear -- and i returned some of it ... and i also talked smack to dave on the radio about the bootied gear -- sorry that pissed you off .. you i didn't know you were listening .. i was always going to return the gear i had told you i found .. (which you got back) ..
total i bootied about $140 worth of gear from you .. i returnde $70 and got nothign back for it -- (not even a beer) -- so i dont know what you're pissed about.
(1 red cam, 1 gold cam, 3 sligns, about 8 carabiners, 1 locking biner)
if you can't clean your route, i am not obligated to do it for you.
-- ricardo
|
|
|
|
|
iamthewallress
Nov 4, 2003, 12:35 AM
Post #7 of 94
(5669 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 2, 2003
Posts: 2463
|
Did you per chance see the post about the dude who fractured his pelvis on the black tower pitch? I'd rather see Zodiac take a couple of wacks than see Ricardo get plucked off it by SAR.
|
|
|
|
|
elcapbuzz
Nov 4, 2003, 1:33 AM
Post #8 of 94
(5669 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 24, 2001
Posts: 460
|
Ethics? What the.....
Ok, the Hubers can weld a pin every three feet for their free attempt (before they sent it) and nobody says a word about it. Then Ricardo nails twelve times and everybody gets upset?
How is that more ethical?
Good job Ricardo!!!
Cheers, Ammon
|
|
|
|
|
epic_ed
Nov 4, 2003, 2:45 AM
Post #9 of 94
(5669 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 17, 2002
Posts: 4724
|
Well, that about sums it up. :lol:
Experience will allow you to climb cleaner and in better style in the future. I guarantee whatever you want to call his ascent this go around it was a better style than "bail."
Ed
|
|
|
|
|
ricardol
Nov 4, 2003, 4:36 PM
Post #10 of 94
(5669 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 11, 2002
Posts: 1050
|
holly molly ..
.. the guys over at www.cascaseclimbers.com are totally bent out of shape over my nailing on zodiac ..
.. its actually kind of funny .. -- fairly hostile environment (i have a whole new appreciation for the rc.com community now) ..
-- ricardo
|
|
|
|
|
socalclimber
Nov 4, 2003, 4:38 PM
Post #11 of 94
(5669 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 27, 2001
Posts: 2437
|
Don't sweat it Ricardo, you done good!
Robert
|
|
|
|
|
epic_ed
Nov 4, 2003, 4:45 PM
Post #12 of 94
(5669 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 17, 2002
Posts: 4724
|
What's funny to me is their inability to acknowledge that MANY parties who attmept Zodiac and don't bail use pins somewhere on the route. The guy squawking the most over there (Will) even admits to nailing on the black tower pitch! Sooooo...it's OK for him to nail once, but not OK for you to nail less than a dozen times? Hypocrite.
Sending Zodiac clean is the best style -- no doubt. But it is not in the same category of established clean climbs like the Nose. Of the TRs I've read in the past couple of years my recollection is about 1/2 of them needed a pin or two on the route, and even some of the more experienced climbers admit doing Zodiac clean is a real challenge. I remeber Karl's Zodiac TR from last year and he was gripped in a couple of spots and indicates he struggled to keep it a clean ascent. Now if someone with Karl's experience struggled, well...doesn't that speak volumes?
Ed
|
|
|
|
|
zachres
Nov 4, 2003, 5:12 PM
Post #13 of 94
(5669 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 25, 2003
Posts: 62
|
Speaking as a relatively new climber, having never been on a big-wall route, but looking to do so as soon as abilities permitt:
If it is poosible to climb a route in a style that doesn't damage the natural features, shouldn't it only be done that way??? Don't we have the tools and gear necessary to generally do this???
Again, I am fairly naive, so I am not passing any sort of judgement here. I'm just a little confused. Every time I go to the Valley, I see parties toting big-wall racks that include tons of Pitons, and it just doesn't sit well with me. In an area like Yosemite, that sees tons of climber traffic, shouldn't we be more respectful and preserving of the rock?
It seems to me that if a route CAN go clean, then climbers wishing to do that route should put in the necesary training and preperation to do it in such a manner.
|
|
|
|
|
dsafanda
Nov 4, 2003, 5:19 PM
Post #14 of 94
(5669 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 6, 2002
Posts: 1025
|
You answered your own question when you wrote...
In reply to: I am fairly naive
Pitons continue to be an accepted form of protection for insidious cracks on big walls through out the world. Granted they should be used responsibly and only when necessary but that is a personal decision best left to each individual.
Nice work Ricardol. I hope this thread doesn't turn in to a boring rehash of the merits and/or evils of piton craft. Hasn't then been done to death?
|
|
|
|
|
epic_ed
Nov 4, 2003, 5:31 PM
Post #15 of 94
(5669 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 17, 2002
Posts: 4724
|
If that's how you choose to climb, excellent. You'll find that's a high standard to uphold, especially if you venture off the trade routes. I strive to climb as clean as possible, but am prepared to place a pin if I feel it's necessary (for what ever variety of factors). In the face of a decision to bail or proceed upward by placing a pin, I'm swingin' the hammer.
Ed
|
|
|
|
|
socalclimber
Nov 4, 2003, 5:47 PM
Post #16 of 94
(5669 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 27, 2001
Posts: 2437
|
I've talked to a bunch of people who have had to nail on that route. It's not like he went nailing up the nose. Those I have talked to who did the route clean said it took a ton of trickery to do it, and they were scared sh**tless.
Hats off to Ricardo.
|
|
|
|
|
climb_plastic
Nov 4, 2003, 6:38 PM
Post #17 of 94
(5669 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 24, 2003
Posts: 706
|
I don't get it. I never aid climbed and I didn't know you had to nail the rock. I'm not sure why it's accepted practice to nail the rock? Sounds kinda hypocritical to say that it's OK. This may be a bit naive, but if people are going to nail the rock anyway then why do people get so mad about bolting again? Not that I would bolt it but I would be pretty hesitant to nail it also.
|
|
|
|
|
rogueclimber
Nov 4, 2003, 7:17 PM
Post #18 of 94
(5669 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 10, 2003
Posts: 150
|
In reply to: I don't get it. I never aid climbed and I didn't know you had to nail the rock. I'm not sure why it's accepted practice to nail the rock? Sounds kinda hypocritical to say that it's OK. This may be a bit naive, but if people are going to nail the rock anyway then why do people get so mad about bolting again? Not that I would bolt it but I would be pretty hesitant to nail it also.
Not to put you down there but, if you have never aid climbed and don't even know what 'nailing' is, do you think your posts could wait for a topic that you have some knowledge of??
Ricardo, I think you did a fine job. (as I posted under your TR)
Cheers, Gabe
|
|
|
|
|
zachres
Nov 4, 2003, 7:37 PM
Post #19 of 94
(5669 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 25, 2003
Posts: 62
|
Please don't mistake someone asking a question, for someone making a point.
I think that it is a valid question, and as yet in this thread, not completely answered; How can we ethicaly justify "nail ups."... especially on trade routes that see massive amounts of traffic. It would almost seem that the permanent placement of bolts would be less damaging to the rock.
I am, by no means, attempting to pass judgement on anyone (although, I am sure this subtlety will be lost on the rc.com habitual flamers). I am just looking for an explanation.
Zach
|
|
|
|
|
climb_plastic
Nov 4, 2003, 7:43 PM
Post #20 of 94
(5669 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 24, 2003
Posts: 706
|
In reply to: Not to put you down there but, if you have never aid climbed and don't even know what 'nailing' is, do you think your posts could wait for a topic that you have some knowledge of??
That's why I asked the question. I didn't state an opinion yet.
|
|
|
|
|
rogueclimber
Nov 4, 2003, 8:01 PM
Post #21 of 94
(5669 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 10, 2003
Posts: 150
|
In reply to: Please don't mistake someone asking a question, for someone making a point. I think that it is a valid question, and as yet in this thread, not completely answered; How can we ethicaly justify "nail ups."... especially on trade routes that see massive amounts of traffic. It would almost seem that the permanent placement of bolts would be less damaging to the rock. I am, by no means, attempting to pass judgement on anyone (although, I am sure this subtlety will be lost on the rc.com habitual flamers). I am just looking for an explanation. Zach |
|
|
|
|
dsafanda
Nov 4, 2003, 8:14 PM
Post #22 of 94
(5669 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 6, 2002
Posts: 1025
|
Let's put it this way;
The next time you're in a place like Yosemite take a look around. From the valley floor you can spot all of the most popular free routes like Bishop's Terrace, Nutcracker, Central Pillar of Frenzy, Serenity Crack etc. The path of these routes is clearly visible as white and polished granite that stands out from the rest of the cliff. Why is this? Well, it's not from nailing. All climbing, even free climbing and bouldering will slowly but surely deface the rock. In fact, those thousands of pairs of hands and feet traveling up such routes probably causes more visual damage than pitons ever have. Why continue climbing if it causes damage to the rock? Well, I'm guessing that you and most of us on this site have made an ethical decision that the experience is somehow worth the damage we cause. If you call yourself a climber, you have accepted the fact that you are going to forever change the cliffs you hold dear. There is no way around the fact that aid climbing often relys on tools that have the potential to forever change the route being climbed. Obviously we should do our best to minimize excessive damage but it is and always will be the nature of the beast.
If you can't accept this fact, you might think about taking up knitting or perhaps lawn darts.
|
|
|
|
|
climb_plastic
Nov 4, 2003, 11:20 PM
Post #23 of 94
(5669 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 24, 2003
Posts: 706
|
In reply to: To leave the pins 'fixed' in these areas is a better idea but not a final sollution.
I'm not getting why fixed pins are any better. I'm not convinced that nailing your own protection is good either. To me that sounds like me going to a sport route and putting up my own bolts where I think I need it. And I'm not just playing devil's advocate cause it really doesn't sound right....all the reasons why you don't want to bolt climbs are the same reasons why you don't want to nail climbs. So you have fixed pins and holes in the wall. That doesn't devalue the climb?
|
|
|
|
|
ricardol
Nov 4, 2003, 11:40 PM
Post #24 of 94
(5669 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 11, 2002
Posts: 1050
|
In reply to: In reply to: To leave the pins 'fixed' in these areas is a better idea but not a final sollution. I'm not getting why fixed pins are any better. I'm not convinced that nailing your own protection is good either. To me that sounds like me going to a sport route and putting up my own bolts where I think I need it. And I'm not just playing devil's advocate cause it really doesn't sound right....all the reasons why you don't want to bolt climbs are the same reasons why you don't want to nail climbs. So you have fixed pins and holes in the wall. That doesn't devalue the climb?
to really get why you nail on certain aid climbs, you need to get out there and experience it..
here is a scenario ..
the crack is thin and shallow -- intermittently the crack closes up to a seam where nothing is getting through .. you have just climbed above a fixed head, and then hooked 2 nice pin scars. you look above and see that in 2 more moves there are about 3 more fixed heads. You are 1000 feet off the deck, about 20 feet below you is a ramp that will break your bones if you land on it.
what do you do? -- the survival instinct in you is telling you that you HAVE to get some good gear before you stand on the next heads, otherwise you are looking at a painful landing.
1st you try nuts -- they slip out of the pin placements.
2nd you try offset nuts -- they stick about 1/2 the time, but mostly they blow under testing.
3rd you consider hooking the pin placement -- it would work, but you'd be running it out more. -- you even consider leaving a camhook as pro.
4th you try cams -- no go either -- the small cams that do fit, wont sit right bcause of the flaring shallow pin scars.
5th you try offset cams -- ooops. you only brought one set of offsets, and you already used them below.
-- what to do? -- what to do?
meanwhile 15 minutes have gone by -- and the wind has whipped up around you, and you looked down at the void several times, each time your sphincter got a bit tighter...
.. so finally you decide -- ahh -- to hell with it .. i'll place a pin and then go for it .. -- you get a knifeblade out, and sink it -- the nice sounds that a pin makes when its good makes everything alright.
you then feel free to hook above the pin, and walk on up to the fixed heads above.
.. this accurately describes what p7 of zodiac feels like ..
.. nailing is not something you do no every aid route .. aid routes evolve through time .. like the West face of leaning tower .. about the only reason a hammer is used on that route is to replace a fixed head .. (that route at one point in time was a nailing route.)
oh -- and the reason why nailing is not as bad as bolting, is that a bolt cannot be removed..
-- ricardo
|
|
|
|
|
epic_ed
Nov 5, 2003, 12:13 AM
Post #25 of 94
(5669 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 17, 2002
Posts: 4724
|
If your palms aren't sweating from the above scenario then you have no concept of when, why, or how to use pitons. I'm not saying that to slam anyone but more to illustrate how uninformed your opinion is if you think there are no differences between bolting a route from the base of El Cap to the top and using pins judiciously. It's like not acknowledging there's a difference in impact in David's above examples.
Be happy to take you up and belay you sometime to show you what we're talking about, though. :mrgreen:
Ed
|
|
|
|
|
|
1
