|
blueeyedclimber
Nov 7, 2003, 2:12 PM
Post #1 of 84
(8714 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 19, 2002
Posts: 4602
|
First, this is not an elitist thread. I can say that because I am NOT in that category. I think it's close (I hope), I can taste it. I want to know for those of you who climb at that level, what made the difference in getting there and more specifically do you train for it aside from just climbing. I got to be honest, I just want to climb, I don't want to train. Is that enough to get to that level? I try to really improve my climbing by reading, watching other people climb, but mostly just trying a variety of different climbs at all different levels, but spending most of my time at my limit or slightly above.
Please don't tell me what level you do climb at. I am assuming that if you respond that you are at that level.
thanks, Josh
|
|
|
|
|
rmiller
Nov 7, 2003, 2:36 PM
Post #2 of 84
(8714 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 4, 2002
Posts: 251
|
Training helps, but is NOT a necessity! IMHO, the biggest factor is your desire and attitude. A go for it attitude without a fear of falling will take you a long way (I don't mean an unsafe go for it attitude). Although that helps in some circumstances. :D If you have a gym, go climb two times a week in doors. It is training, but really it is just climbing on plastic. Have fun with indoor climbing. Too many people rag on gyms, but if you make it a fun, social place, the climbing is great! Bouldering really helped me break into the upper range. It helped my body learn how to power through difficult cruxes to rest spots, which is a big plus on 12's.
Good luck. Oh, for the first few 12's, pick a route that caters to your strengths. Good luck.
|
|
|
|
|
junnos
Nov 7, 2003, 2:40 PM
Post #3 of 84
(8714 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 18, 2003
Posts: 217
|
A very important thing is consistancy. Be consistant in every grade on every type of rock. For instance, say your local crag is ummm, the "New" and you can climb 5.11 there. Then you take a trip to let's say Smith Rock and are haveing trouble with the 10's, big time. Are you a 5.11 climber? No. See what I'm getting at here?
Another thing is fear and (not sure of the right word to use here). Basically don't be intimidated (That's it!) by a number or the way a route looks. I was scared to death of 12's once. I never got on one, just real intimidated, you know? Then my bud threw me on one and I got it the next day, having a blast in the process. They now go down easily and I bumped my trad up to them as well. If the grade is a LOT harder then you think you are capable of, get on the route and check it out (with an open mind). By that I mean, get on it, hang at each bolt if you have too. Do the moves, feel the holds, try new teqnique. Basically, just get on it to feel what that grade is like, you may surprise yourself.
|
|
|
|
|
rockprodigy
Nov 7, 2003, 2:48 PM
Post #4 of 84
(8714 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 10, 2002
Posts: 1540
|
I had to train to initially break into the 12's but after a few years at that level, I can do 'em pretty much off the couch. The training helped me break through the initial mental barrier, helped me "believe" I could do it.
I don't think you need to train, but you need to climb in a gym. Your muscles don't get a very good workout on rock. There is too much standing around, too much resting, too many other factors that keep you from really pushing your muscles. You need to boulder in the gym by yourself. It wouldn't hurt to read a book about training so you would know what to work on in the gym, but if you do that, you might get too good, and then you'll be asking us how to break into 13's.
|
|
|
|
|
blueeyedclimber
Nov 7, 2003, 3:03 PM
Post #5 of 84
(8714 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 19, 2002
Posts: 4602
|
In reply to: I had to train to initially break into the 12's but after a few years at that level, I can do 'em pretty much off the couch. The training helped me break through the initial mental barrier, helped me "believe" I could do it. I don't think you need to train, but you need to climb in a gym. Your muscles don't get a very good workout on rock. There is too much standing around, too much resting, too many other factors that keep you from really pushing your muscles. You need to boulder in the gym by yourself. It wouldn't hurt to read a book about training so you would know what to work on in the gym, but if you do that, you might get too good, and then you'll be asking us how to break into 13's.
During the cold months here in New England I climb a lot in the gym and try to mix it up between tr, bouldering, and their sport routes. I don't really do anything aside from climb (ie. plyometrics, yoga, etc.) but maybe I should. I tend to set a lot of goals and so far I have hit every one before I said I would, so maybe in a few months i will be asking about the 13's. Wouldn't that be sweet.
|
|
|
|
|
fracture
Nov 7, 2003, 3:22 PM
Post #6 of 84
(8714 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 13, 2003
Posts: 1814
|
Watch stronger climbers. Especially watch where they put their feet. Even on easier routes, you'll probably notice them doing some moves differently. Think about why (does it put their body in a better position? take more weight somehow? etc). Ask questions about technique. You probably don't need to train strength to reach 12 if you focus on good technique.
For working your first 12, get maximal beta for the route from someone near your height, and pick a route which suits your strengths (e.g. maybe you need to work on endurance, so pick a one-move wonder or a route with plenty of good rests; or maybe power is your problem, so stick with something overhung with easier moves but probably no good rests and more sustained).
The mental aspect is big too. Don't be worrying about how hard it will be or such. Think about how it is possible, then just get on the rock and do it. Get something out of the effort even if you don't send.
|
|
|
|
|
neomagi
Nov 7, 2003, 3:42 PM
Post #7 of 84
(8714 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 6, 2003
Posts: 202
|
i am in agreement with everyone else, training helps, but isn t necessary. it will help cut down the time it takes, but ultimately, the best training for climbing is still climbing.
i would suggest that you round out your climbing. increase your technique, that always helps, footwork is key. but also increase your flexability, that is where yoga might help you. if not, yoga, at least 10 minutes of stretching before climbing, and another 15 - 20 after. the obvious strenght, hard boldering & hangboards can be great training. if you want to get on the fast track, do tons of core strength. if you have a super strong core, you will break into 12's and 13's much more easily.
|
|
|
|
|
climbingbum
Nov 7, 2003, 3:56 PM
Post #8 of 84
(8714 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 17, 2003
Posts: 134
|
I'm with "fracture" on this one. Watching a strong climber is one of the most efficient exercises that I have ever done. It's motivating to the point where you can visualize the movements and your anxious to get the opportunity to work the moves. For example, we were getting worked on a route at the ORG, one of our partners sent it right away. I always believed strength got you up hard routes. The kicker here is that she couldn't do one chinup but here she is sending 12's. On a highly technical route, I feel footwork and technique can push you into the 12's long before training will.
|
|
|
|
|
fredrogers
Nov 7, 2003, 5:15 PM
Post #9 of 84
(8714 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 20, 2003
Posts: 288
|
I'm not a big fan of Eric Horst's training books but I think they are very good for moving into the 5.12 range. I especially like the idea of building up a pyramid of routes. Get a good base of 11a/b's (try to onsight some) and a few 11c/d's
My main improvements were caused by
-committing to climbing 3-4 days per week with good rests between sessions. Be willing to change that schedule depending on how tired you feel. My normal schedule is Sat, Sun, Tues, Thurs (best for bouldering) OR Sat, Sun, Tues, Wed (best for routes). Take at least 1-2 weeks off for every 10 weeks of climbing.
-climb outside as much as possible possibly cheating out on work in order to do so in the middle of the week. Learn how to climb in the cold and find partners that will join you on those grey days where everyone else goes inside. But also don't be ashamed to climb inside when your schedule insists. It's easy to burn out on the gym but you won't get better by sitting on the couch.
-Try projects that are hard but still well within your ability. Like make a goal to do something within 10 tries or less. This helps you from doing a project that's way over your head.
-DO NOT only try the soft/easy graded 12's. Do you wanna send a 12a that most people think is 11d? Send all the easy 12a's and then you'll get spanked and frustrated when you try a "real" 12a. DO try a quality route that you find fun and will keep you wanting to come back and keep trying cuz it's so damn fun. So, don't look for an "easy" 12a. Look for a 3 star 12a.
-EXPECT for your ability level to fluctuate. You may send a 12a and then not do another one for 4 months. It's not because you "suck" or you're "weak". Your performance level will go up and down like the stock market , but in the long run you'll get consistently better if you stick with it.
-I only climb. I don't lift weights and I rarely go running or biking. Sometimes I run because it's fun but not because it's an integrated portion of my climbing program. But I'm skinny so aerobics may be more important for you if you are overweight (by the way, I've seen some slightly pudgy guys send 13d, not every sport climber has to be an anorexic stick). I also only boulder and only sport climb. I used to do it all but found I was Jack of all trades and master of none. I went mountaineering and ice climbing and, for me, it didn't translate well to climbing harder sport routes. Some people are great at doing trad, sport, and bouldering. But that didn't work for me. Your results and desires may differ.
|
|
|
|
|
gravitytheory
Nov 7, 2003, 5:21 PM
Post #10 of 84
(8714 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 12, 2003
Posts: 261
|
Training is not neccessary if you smoke lots of pot--then you can just float up to the top.
|
|
|
|
|
jcinco
Nov 7, 2003, 5:44 PM
Post #11 of 84
(8714 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 27, 2002
Posts: 395
|
Agreed with fredrodgers. All that "how to climb 5.12", "training your weakness" is a load of hooey (I can't believe I just said hooey). DO NOT "train"! "Training" is the best path to burnout and injury. Just get out and climb. Devote your free time to climbing. PUSH YOURSELF. Get on routes that you think might be too hard for you. Make a commitment to climbing outside. Climbing on plastic gets you super strong but you forget how to use your feet.. a lot of those sickly strong people you see in the gym are specialists that struggle on 11a outside. Practice redpointing routes, even if those routes are 11c right now. Not sure what other advice to give... but if you make the time commitment you'll eventually get there.
|
|
|
|
|
fredrogers
Nov 7, 2003, 5:53 PM
Post #12 of 84
(8714 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 20, 2003
Posts: 288
|
Training your "weakness" is very important but doesn't have to be boring. If finger strength seems to be a weakness that doesn't mean you have to do a million boring hangboard workouts. Just do routes or boulder problems that are crimpy. Suck at overhang routes? Forget doing situps, just get on some easy overhang/body tension routes.
|
|
|
|
|
therealdeal
Nov 7, 2003, 5:57 PM
Post #13 of 84
(8714 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 29, 2002
Posts: 250
|
I think climbing year round is the key - whether it be in the gym or outside. I think best case scenario is using both.
I do think training is an easy way to get to the next level. Not just training climbing. Doing situps, pushups, pullups, low resistance weights. The most important thing about this is it keeps strength and tone up and WEIGHT DOWN. The single most important thing in sport climbing is the strength to weight ratio--I don't care what anybody else says--its also one of the esiest problems to solve. You are never going to climb to your full potential hauling around extra weight!
Campus boarding, finger boards, four by fours and time on a woodie are great too! Never over do it, and don't always try stuff at your limit--but do have like one day a week on the woodie where you are trying projects--things with tiny holds (of course it is all relative) that you can't or can just barely hang. Sonn you'll find yourself hanging some of them, although I find some problems always stay out of reach. Just move on.
Also, days out side projecting a route--don't get discourged and don't project everyday, but you've got to get on 'em to climb 'em.
Anyway I talk to much and need to get back to work.
Good Luck!
|
|
|
|
|
madflash
Nov 7, 2003, 6:02 PM
Post #14 of 84
(8714 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 25, 2002
Posts: 77
|
Yeah I just recently broke into that level a couple of months ago, and I did very little training on plastic, campus, etc to get there. I think as you start moving into the 13s or 14s training is more of a necessity, but for 5.12 most people (who are in pretty good shape with a strong base of upper body strength) can do it without any real training regiment.
I would suggest lots of bouldering however. That was a major key for me. A good winter of bouldering two or three times a week and you will crank through the cruxes on 12s like nothing. Don't just go out looking for the hardest problem you can hang on. Try to focus on really "mastering" each problem you do. By that I mean learn to relax on the holds and really feel the movement. Learn to be fluid and not move through sequences out of desperation, instead out of control. Too many boulderers I know have to fight their way through hard moves. Sure you are going to have feet cut occasionally and have to chuck a dyno every once in a while. But if every move is like that it will be damn near impossible to make it up a 80 foot long 5.12, just watch em try.
The other key I found to being able to do 12s was to spend a lot of my roped climbing days focusing on different aspects of the game. Have a day every few weeks where your goal is to do as many 5.10s and 5.11s as you can with only minimal rest in between. These endurance days really paid off a lot. I found one of my problems on 12s was that after a good warm up, I would only get like four or five solid burns before I was to cashed to pull at my maximum any more. That really was holding me back. By focusing on upping the number of burns I could get in a day by spending lots of time onsighting and lapping 11s, I got to where I can have more burns per day. That will greatly increase your success rate on 12s.
One last thing. Find some like minded individuals who are either pulling as hard as you and want to pull harder or are already pulling harder than you. Climb with them. Motivation is so key. Feeding off of each others energy will push you harder than ever before. And good luck
|
|
|
|
|
socalbolter
Nov 7, 2003, 6:05 PM
Post #15 of 84
(8714 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 27, 2002
Posts: 796
|
many great comments presented here already, but let me add a few.
often times harder climbs come down to dealing with hard moves in uncomfortable circumstances, with limited time to commit. this can be caused by a number of things, but usually it's either fear of falling, dealing with insecure body positions or dealing with a single bad hold or set of holds. being able to make a quick decisive move is often the key to success. most climbs have a distinct crux with the intensity of the moves lessening to some degree immediately following it. being able to make a quick assessment of the needed action and then committing to it immediately is a very important skill.
as for your question of whether you need to "train" or not - as ronnie said above simply increasing your time climbing is in itself training, but not in the scientific, often boring way that you are probably referring. i find it extremely boring to run through a series of exercises that in and of themselves are not enjoyable. due to this i tend to just spend a lot of time climbing at or around the grade i'm shooting for. whether you succeed or fail is irrelevant. simply exposing yourself to that level will get you used to the type of moves and body positions that you'll need to be comfortable with in order to commit when it's required.
desire is a big part of it too, so if you want it - REALLY want it!
good luck!
|
|
|
|
|
1269topper
Nov 7, 2003, 6:55 PM
Post #16 of 84
(8714 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 6, 2003
Posts: 168
|
Wow there is some really increadble great sound advice in this tread.
I just broke this level this summer and it was due to lots of determination and acceptance of pain. I know i don't have the best techinque which always supersedes streight and determination. However probably the best training i did to help me rapidly develop to this level was bouldering and then immedalty down bouldering the route I just sent. After a awhile your footwork really gets solid. Plus bouldering with sick boulders will push you there. Then some day when you got a ton of crap on your mind and you just need a fix of some cutical ripping ass kicking climbing throw up a Top rope on a 12 thats something you enjoy to climb. IE slab, roof, crack etc.
reason I said that to do this on a day were your consumed with though I seen to onsite much better then cause i don't think about grade or two moves later I jsut pissed and go for it reguardless of the outcome. Once your past the "OH my god 5.12 barrier " you can work at climbing the route more flawless or lead it.
Best of luck, I believe climbing a attitude so invision sucess not failure.
|
|
|
|
|
miuralover
Nov 7, 2003, 7:13 PM
Post #17 of 84
(8714 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 9, 2003
Posts: 106
|
Honestly if you leave the gym physically tired every night, not just after your skin starts feeling uncomfortable, you will hit 5.12. Of course climbing 2-4 days/week and climbing with/watching people better than you will help.
I know this sounds bad but body weight/type is important as well. While there are many different types of climbers out there, some have to work much harder than others to reach "5.12".
In my opinion there are several grades that everyone should strive to be consistent on. I'm travelled alot and I've found that there are amazing 11b, 12c, and 13b routes everywhere you go. I don't know why but aim to climb 12c and you'll get on amazing routes, then aim for 13b. I'm not saying that all the other grades are lame but think about where you've been and the routes you've done. What grades do you think are generally the best? Yay 5.12!!
|
|
|
|
|
superfox
Nov 7, 2003, 9:59 PM
Post #18 of 84
(8714 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 24, 2003
Posts: 141
|
Since you live in Massachusetts, I will assume that you mostly sport climb at Rumney. Since I was working towards the same goal as you are this summer, I got on a lot of 12a's and 12a/b's, so if you want specific information on some climbs, I can give you some that I think are really nice and/or easy.
Social Outcast (12a/b) - Really fun and interesting route. Goes up a 55 degree arete, with a ledge-rest in the middle. The best part, (**WARNING, possible unwanted beta**) there is a "hidden" jug most people miss in the middle of the crux, right near the top.
Orangahang (12a/b) - 30 foot roof on big holds, that's really pumpy, but once you've got the moves down, it just takes endurance to pull off.
Silver Surfer (12a) - Really nice route, with an easy crack start, some moves over a roof, then up a pair of dihedrals.
Curl Up and Fly (12a) - A section of 5.9-5.10 leads to a dyno to a positive crimp, followed by more 5.10, all on vertical rock.
Of each of these, I have climbed them with one fall, and have only completed Curl Up and Fly (on my third try), but I think with one or two more trips to each, I can tick all of them (except maybe Orangahang). I hope this gives you some ideas, and helps you decide on a 5.12 project. I know that it is best to get on a sustained, three star climb for your first 5.12, but if you're looking for one to send, just to say you did a 5.12, try Curl Up and Fly (that is, if you're good at dynos). Good luck.
|
|
|
|
|
kansasclimber
Nov 7, 2003, 10:21 PM
Post #19 of 84
(8714 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 21, 2002
Posts: 541
|
You will get there. You must trust that you will. Just keep working at it, and you will hit the grade before you know it. As far as what to do. Try to just push yourself. I did not do anything except have a different mind set about climbing. Once all you want is to get better and stronger and your lifestyle shows it, such as what you eat and workouts, then you will stick 12's. The grade is hard to get to but do not get intimidated as soo many have said. Good luck.
Stephen
|
|
|
|
|
skecthballer
Nov 7, 2003, 10:52 PM
Post #20 of 84
(8714 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 14, 2003
Posts: 123
|
One thing that nobody has said yet is to go climbing with people that really push you and make you get on harder routes. This is how I sent some of my first 12s.
|
|
|
|
|
pancaketom
Nov 7, 2003, 11:02 PM
Post #21 of 84
(8714 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 9, 2002
Posts: 391
|
I've never been able to climb 5.12 when I had a job, although if I got one tomorrow I bet I could still send. I'd say climb as much as possible w/o getting injured, climb with better/ highly motivated people, and keep trying things that might be over your limit.
|
|
|
|
|
climb4life
Nov 7, 2003, 11:49 PM
Post #22 of 84
(8714 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 24, 2002
Posts: 174
|
i learn for me is consistency. just keep on climbing and don't take more than a few months off or i will loose some strenght. also, being able to control my breathing while in a sketchy situations also seems to help me. i don't indoor climb much. i just go where it's warm and dry like moab right now. getting in to 5.12 grade is rewarding but remember,it's only a grade. i have climb some 5.9 or 5.10 that are way better than the classic 5.12 climbs. but that's me. but the question you ought to ask yourself is, how much are you willing to sacrafice to climb that hard? i meant as in your time, energy, money, girlfriend/boyfriend....ect. hell, i'm blabbing right now. i'm gonna browse the site before i make a fool of myself. good luck and
climb on
|
|
|
|
|
climb_plastic
Nov 8, 2003, 12:18 AM
Post #23 of 84
(8714 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 24, 2003
Posts: 706
|
It's not necessary to train indoors but it sure helps. I think you should have a combination of both. Climbing indoors will give you the strength required and some of the techniques needed but climbing outdoors has subleties you won't find indoors like finding holds and using them properly. You may climb 5.12 indoors but that doesn't mean you can do 5.12s outdoors if you never tried it but you should be physically strong enough.
|
|
|
|
|
curt
Nov 8, 2003, 12:54 AM
Post #24 of 84
(8714 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 27, 2002
Posts: 18275
|
For me (age 47) training has become a double edged sword. I find that I can boulder as hard as ever by just bouldering on weekends and doing very minimal training mid-week. By minimal, I mean a few sets of pullups, pushups, etc. - a couple of days a week, plus some aerobic conditioning. If I go to the gym mid-week, I run the risk of having tendon problems with my elbows.
So, whatever you do, don't overtrain and get some sort of injury that can actually hurt your climbing--rather than help it.
Curt
|
|
|
|
|
rocknalaska
Nov 8, 2003, 1:07 AM
Post #25 of 84
(8714 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 19, 2002
Posts: 129
|
Learn the simple physics of climbing. i.e. direction of pull, how to push, etc. To me this is the most lacking thing I see in climbers. I've seen climbers who can crank multiple one arm pull-ups, have great smearing technique, good footwork, but have no comprehension of body mechanics. Hence they have an extreme weakness. This applies to all types of climbing.
Also, set your sights at 13 and 12 will come quickly.
|
|
|
|
|
|
1
