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cjstudent
Nov 8, 2003, 4:37 AM
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First off my name is Aaron, 20, from NC...going to Appalachain State Univ for those in that area.
One thing I have read over and over on this forum was "Get with an experienced climber and learn the trade"...and i am in the process of doing this so I don't need that lecture. :D
This is a beginner forum so don't really flame me if I mess something up here. And I have spent the last two hours reading this forum about setting up anchors, top rope and lead belays, and have been reading this forum for weeks...so...my question is basically "Is this good?" thing.
Today I did some top-roping at Ship Rock, NC. My anchor on top of the crag consisted of two main parts
#1 - one Brown Tricam and #8 BD Hex connected by a runner using the "X" crossing and then a biner.
#2 - two Mid size BD Stoppers placed directionally towards the pull over the edge and these connected with a sling and "X" crossing with a biner
Then these two seperate anchors were connected together with a 25' sling. (so the sling would extend over the edge) The sling was tied together in a loop with a water knot, and just clipped into #1 anchor on one side and #2 anchor on the other, and in the middle I tied two separate overhand knots and clipped two locking carabiners into both loops on the two knots.
If I did a good enough job of describing my anchor, can anyone give me input on ways to make it better...etc etc.
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hikerken
Nov 9, 2003, 7:29 AM
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making all the usual assumptions.....you know how to place the pieces, the webbing is 1", and in good shape, you know how to tie your knots, you use backed up biners......
The main problem is the "x's" that you have used on the two separate anchors. Most people now believe that this is a system that should only be used when you are using two very marginal pieces, and is something only an expert should probably be doing. The reason is, that if one anchor fails, the other will be shock-loaded, greatly increasing the chances for failure. MUCh better would be to use the same system that you used to connect your two systems.....clipped at each end, with two loops in the middle. Clipping so the ends come out easily adjustible is easiest if done with a clove hitch. backed up. Can even do with an overhand on one end, a clove on the other.
I'd also use three carabiners for the rope. The third need not lock. The reason is that this lessens the angle the rope must make, lessening the significant wear in top-roping.
It would be REALLY nice if you could use some natural anchors.
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lollipopchic
Nov 9, 2003, 8:14 AM
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In reply to: Then these two seperate anchors were connected together with a 25' sling. (so the sling would extend over the edge) The sling was tied together in a loop with a water knot, and just clipped into #1 anchor on one side and #2 anchor on the other, and in the middle I tied two separate overhand knots and clipped two locking carabiners into both loops on the two knots.
I'm not quite sure what you meant here. But its easier to tie just one knot... Have a look at these websites to see what I mean:
http://www.chockstone.org/TechTips/Equalise.htm
http://www.chockstone.org/TechTips/Cordelette.htm
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one900johnnyk
Nov 9, 2003, 1:13 PM
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like ken, it sounds pretty good, assuming you know how to place your gear properly... but aren't there any f'in trees around??
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cjstudent
Nov 10, 2003, 12:25 AM
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No there were not any trees around.
Thanks for the links, I went climbing today and set up a top-rope using two bolts and a tricam with the cordelette method and this also worked well.
In regards to the 3 carabiners instead of two, I didn't mention that I use a pulley on the top-rope to be easier on the rope...and yes I back up the pulley too by clipping a short runner to the rope below the pulley then back up to my two carabiners.
Again thanks for the links, I knew how to set up those anchors but diagrams always help.
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reno
Nov 10, 2003, 12:37 AM
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I wouldn't have used the sliding X to equalize the gear. Since this is a top-rope, I'd use a static equalization, with the slings/cordlette tied with a Fig-8.
All this assumes the gear was solid, as has been mentioned.
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cracklover
Nov 10, 2003, 5:28 PM
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Two separate knots at the power-point, a pulley, and then another sling extending below the pulley for backup? Okay, there's your problem - you created a system that's way more complicated than it need be. Not that there's anything wrong with it, per se. But when you do this, you create more of a chance of screwing something up, and you also make it harder to inspect (I feel bad for you having to look at that mess at the top-rope point and trying to figure out if it was okay).
Honestly, in the way you used it, the sliding-Xs sound fine to me. So here's what I'd do differently: At the "power-point" where the slings come together over the lip, take both of them together and tie an overhand or fig-8 knot in the bight, then clip two opposite/opposed locking biners through that knot. That's it. And if the slings weren't long enough for the rope to run freely, then they just weren't long enough. Use longer slings, girth hitch runners in, or water-knot more webbing onto them to make them longer.
GO
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slobmonster
Nov 13, 2003, 9:10 PM
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Don't bother with a pulley. Though it might work fine with the TR anchors you've been desrcibing, the decreased friction (compared with using two, or as some would have it three biners) will tend to transmit a lot of force to the climber and belayer. The friction in a more traditional setup slows down the movement of the rope, and really doesn't 'wear' the rope in a negative way... the rope is designed to be used this way.
You seem to be overcomplicating your anchors. Three (or more) pieces, equalized statically, extended over the edge, redundant cordage/webbing at master point, you'll be fine.
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baalzimon
Nov 13, 2003, 9:21 PM
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Someone mentioned only using three pieces instead of four. I built alot of for or five point anchors in the beginning until i really started trusting my placements. it may be complicated that way, but as long as you are careful about setting it up, is fine, and very safe. it just takes more time, and may be harder to see if anything is wrong because you have so much stuff going on there.
more to come....
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enanubis
Nov 13, 2003, 11:22 PM
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The only thing I would suggest would be to use figure eights instead of overhand. If the knot is wieghted, eights only reduce rope strenght by 20% where overhand reduces strenght by about 35% I think.
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capn_morgan
Nov 14, 2003, 6:19 PM
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Its good to see someone posting a real question. Welcome to the site. The only thing I would add is that If I am using gear for a TR anchor I try and avoid nuts..accept the biguns, simply begause they can get reall really stuck. Just something to keep in mind, that larger pieces are usally easier to clean. That, and if you dont have some, a big chunk of static rope works well for settin up TR off of natural stuff thats way back from the edge...alot easier to tie knots in than webbing too.
Have fun and Climb safe.
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cjstudent
Nov 19, 2003, 12:06 AM
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Thanks for the feedback on the anchor. I think I have a pretty good understand of it, I just wanted to throw this post out there.
The last couple of TR anchors i've placed have been less complicated. Most of them I have been doing lately have had two bolts, and I placed a 3rd piece of gear for good measure. Then connected it all together with a cordellette.
i use the pulley also because it makes it easier for my belayer to take out slack. Especially when the rope is running over rock, because sometimes that is unavoidable. I weight about the same as my belayer (with my usual belayer) so we don't throw each other around much. I had been using a static line for TR but got a dynamic rope now, so when one of us falls its really easy on the belayer even with the pulley on the TR.
I was basically posting this after reading about the sliding X's. I see more now where that should and shouldn't be used.
I climb about twice a week so I'm learning alot of stuff really fast!!
Thanks!
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hikerken
Nov 19, 2003, 9:56 PM
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In reply to: The only thing I would suggest would be to use figure eights instead of overhand. If the knot is wieghted, eights only reduce rope strenght by 20% where overhand reduces strenght by about 35% I think.
I would disagree with this on two fronts. As a general rule, you should always tie 8's in cordage, and overhands in webbing, not because of weight issues, but because in the respective materials, they are far easier to *untie*.
In terms of loss of strength, the most recent testing I've seen seems to support that there is little loss of strength with either knot. Either way, there is SO much redundancy in the material strength, it is not important.
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stammster
Nov 19, 2003, 10:53 PM
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You stated "Then these two seperate anchors were connected together with a 25' sling. (so the sling would extend over the edge) The sling was tied together in a loop with a water knot, and just clipped into #1 anchor on one side and #2 anchor on the other, and in the middle I tied two separate overhand knots and clipped two locking carabiners into both loops on the two knots. "
No problems with the water knot. Liked the 2 overhand knots at the master point. Consider overhand knots at the anchor points. If you do it this way, the sling would have redundancy if it wears through one side.
As mentioned previously, I think the pulley is a bit of an overkill. Also, don't equalize the gear with a sliding x. If one blows the other may go as well. Just sling the 2 pieces together, equalize as to the direction of the pull, and tie an overhand in that sling as well.
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inflight
Nov 19, 2003, 11:02 PM
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In reply to: The main problem is the "x's" that you have used on the two separate anchors. Most people now believe that this is a system that should only be used when you are using two very marginal pieces, and is something only an expert should probably be doing. The reason is, that if one anchor fails, the other will be shock-loaded, greatly increasing the chances for failure.
Am I understanding you correctly?
My friend, can you elaborate on what you mean by "professionally qualified to use the 'X'"?
On a TR set up, use knots (overhands, 8's) unless the direction of pull will change due to the nature of the route.
If the pieces are bomber, a sliding X is a great idea.
Read all the JL books on anchors.
http://www.rockclimbing.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=530929&highlight=#530929
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fireyxplosion
Dec 2, 2003, 1:48 AM
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i like the cordelette method
if done right, ther is almost no risk of shocking the other placements
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