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2:1 aid climbing method??? (PTPP)
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crankingclimber


Nov 13, 2003, 12:57 PM
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2:1 aid climbing method??? (PTPP)
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Quote "Why climb a big wall, when you can simply pull yourself up using the 2:1 mechanical advantage that adjustable daisies offer?"

I've heard Pete say this many times, yet have not been able to find this method explained anywhere on this site. I've ran multiple searches, and gone through PTPP's index, all to no avail. Can anyone out there explain it to me?


maculated


Nov 13, 2003, 1:00 PM
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http://www.rockclimbing.com/...8ba92014057d65a965cd


maculated


Nov 13, 2003, 1:00 PM
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maculated


Nov 13, 2003, 1:16 PM
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maculated


Nov 13, 2003, 1:21 PM
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Heh, now that I understand that this thread is not about hauling . . . : P

I believe Pete's talking about cinching up the daisy. Once you have your next piece up, and you're ready to attach said daisy, you can pull on it (shortening the length) while you step into your aiders. Can't be done with traditional daisies, but it also becomes important that you have daisies that will unload when weighted. I got to do some aid with the damn Metolius ones and I'd get all cinched good and tight and have a hell of a time loosening them up for my next placement.


passthepitonspete


Nov 13, 2003, 1:22 PM
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Re: 2:1 aid climbing method??? (PTPP) [In reply to]
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Please don't be confused!

My reference here is strictly to using adjustable daisies vs. traditional ones.

If you use traditional [i.e. stupid] daisies, then you must actually climb your aiders. This requires work.

On the other hand, if you have switched to adjustable daisies, it will quickly become obvious that when you pull in the end of the daisy, you are lifting yourself with a 2:1 mechanical advantage, and thus not having to "climb" your aiders.

That's all I meant, mate.


maculated


Nov 13, 2003, 1:24 PM
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Yay. I was right. : P I actually know something about aid now, I guess.


tedc


Nov 14, 2003, 10:39 AM
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In reply to:
Please don't be confused!

My reference here is strictly to using adjustable daisies vs. traditional ones.

If you use traditional [i.e. stupid] daisies, then you must actually climb your aiders. This requires work.

On the other hand, if you have switched to adjustable daisies, it will quickly become obvious that when you pull in the end of the daisy, you are lifting yourself with a 2:1 mechanical advantage, and thus not having to "climb" your aiders.

That's all I meant, mate.

I use the adjustable daisies and certainly see the advantage but don't see how there is a 2:1 mechanical advantage. I pull 6" through the the buckle and now I am 6" higher. Seems like 1:1 to me. Is there a different way to get 2:1? and is 2:1 really useful?
TedC


lambone


Nov 14, 2003, 10:45 AM
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"On the other hand, if you have switched to adjustable daisies, it will quickly become obvious that when you pull in the end of the daisy, you are lifting yourself with a 2:1 mechanical advantage, and thus not having to "climb" your aiders. "


Pulling in on an adjustable daisy chain DOES NOT give you a 2:1 mechanical advantage. And anyone who says it does, clearly doesn't understand mechanical advantage.

It is the same with hauling. If you are pulling the rope straight through a standard pully hauling device (wall-hauler, Pro-Traxion, Mini-Traxion, etc) you are not using a 2:1 system, you are using a 1:1. Same with adjustable daisies.

Infact you are actualy making it harder on yourself because of the extra friction added from the dasiy chain locking device/buckle. It is less work to pull yourself up directly with your arm than it is to pull yourself up with the daisy chain. Make sense?

Try it, hang from a bar and do a pull up. Now hang from a bar on your adjustable daisy chain and try to pull yourself up with the daisy....and don't use your legs.

I gave up on adjustable daisies because the extra work of pulling in the slack every move was making my arms cramp, and giving me "tennis elbow".

Anybody wanna buy some metolius adjustables?


crankingclimber


Nov 14, 2003, 11:06 AM
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Re: 2:1 aid climbing method??? (PTPP) [In reply to]
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My thoughts exactly. I was wondering if there was some wierd way to rig up daisies that would somehow give a 2:1 mechanical advantage, but I think we may just be dealing with a mix up in terminology. Is PTPP refering to pulling on the tail end of an adjustable while using your legs to stand up in the ladder? If so this would make it less work on your legs by dissipating some of the required force to your arms, but it's still not a 2:1 mechanical advantage. Is this what Pete is referring to?


ep


Nov 14, 2003, 11:19 AM
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It's not the same as normal 1:1 hauling, where a stationary person is hauling a load through a pulley. With the adjustable daisy, the person hauling is also the load. For every inch they ascend, they have to pull two inches of rope past themselves. The load on the pulley is equal to their weight and there are two strands of rope, the side they are attached to and the side they are pulling on. So the force on either strand is going to be half their weight, when they are pulling on it.

So, sorry to say, I think Pete's right. Dammit.

Granted, friction will influence the actual advantage. And there are other considerations that are important to whether this actually saves you effort or not.


gravitytheory


Nov 14, 2003, 11:21 AM
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Net work is always the same for a given change in potential energy, such as increasing distance from the center of the earth.


ep


Nov 14, 2003, 11:24 AM
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In reply to:
Net work is always the same for a given change in potential energy, such as increasing distance from the center of the earth.

You're ignoring the biochemical world. If the force to raise an object is so great that you have to strain at maximum muscular effort for 17 hours to raise a load versus using a block and tackle to raise it in 30 minutes, the overall work performed in the system will not be the same.


squish


Nov 14, 2003, 11:29 AM
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In reply to:
Net work is always the same for a given change in potential energy, such as increasing distance from the center of the earth.

Yeah, but which system has the lowest coefficient of grunt?


gravitytheory


Nov 14, 2003, 11:52 AM
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So we have the following formula:

W(biochemical)=G*W(Ideal Physics scenario) such that G is always greater than 1. How does that sound? 8)


bandycoot


Nov 14, 2003, 11:57 AM
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Lambone wrote:
In reply to:
Pulling in on an adjustable daisy chain DOES NOT give you a 2:1 mechanical advantage. And anyone who says it does, clearly doesn't understand mechanical advantage.

I'm amused. :lol:

It is a 2:1. Let's say you pull with 20lbs of force. Your hand is providing 20 lbs of force, and due to tension in the daisy your waist is also receiving 20 lbs of force on it (assuming no friction at the point you are pulling through). It's different because YOU are the load being pulled. Damn PTPP detractors, they have to point out he is wrong even when he is right...

Josh


ep


Nov 14, 2003, 12:08 PM
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In reply to:
So we have the following formula:

W(biochemical)=G*W(Ideal Physics scenario) such that G is always greater than 1. How does that sound? 8)

You might be on to something there...... then again, I think Kelvin and Plank might just have beaten you to it by 150 years of so.


trenchdigger


Nov 14, 2003, 12:08 PM
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Unless the arm you're pulling the adjustable daisy down with is not attached to the body you're lifting, you will have a 2:1 mechanical advantage as PTPP claims (in the ideal, frictionless model, of course).

~Adam~


gravitytheory


Nov 14, 2003, 12:18 PM
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Planck and Kelvin came up with the grunt factor formula? Darn. BTW, planck wasn't quite in his prime 150 years ago.

Edited for grammatical correctness.


ep


Nov 14, 2003, 12:32 PM
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I spelled his name wrong and got the date wrong too. AND I'm still using standard aiders. Jeez....


lambone


Nov 14, 2003, 12:38 PM
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I still claim that my pull up test will prove my point.

Two arms pulling up on a bar, vrs. two arms pulling on a daisy attatched to the bar. No legs.

In my experience it is impossible to pull all your body weight up through an adjustable daisy without using your legs. 2:1 maybe, but the friction generated by the buckle is going to kill you..this is no pully we are talking about here.

All I know is:
This summer I climbed Tangerine Trip with adjustable daisies. By the top of the wall my arms were totaly fried and I could hardly use them on lead.

One wek later I soloed Zodiac with standard daisies and didn't have any fatigue issues while leading. Hauling was a different story though...


bandycoot


Nov 14, 2003, 1:03 PM
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Ok, so technically there is no such thing as a 2:1 or any such system. There is friction. THEORETICALLY PTPP is right and you are wrong. You don't get a FULL 2:1 benefit, but it is easier than it would be otherwise. I even said
In reply to:
assuming no friction at the point you are pulling through
But alas, friction exists. About your test: what is easier to hold, a pull up bar or a thin strap from an adjustable daisy? I think that you test isn't that valid... and you ARE using your legs (unless you're crazy enough to try aid without aiders on an overhang).


lambone


Nov 14, 2003, 1:14 PM
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Ok, so maybe he's right...so what. And forget the test...

Regardless, with adjustable daisies you end up cranking in with your arms alot more. Just my opinion...


gravitytheory


Nov 14, 2003, 1:16 PM
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A Solution to the problem of which type of daisy to use:

Free Climb.


ricardol


Nov 14, 2003, 1:18 PM
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In reply to:
I still claim that my pull up test will prove my point.

Two arms pulling up on a bar, vrs. two arms pulling on a daisy attatched to the bar. No legs.
...

dude -- you can't ignore the legs .. its part of the system that gives you 2:1

.. its a round-off anyways .. for all intents and purposes pulling yourself up using a daisy and your legs is easier than stepping up on the aiders .. .

-- ricardo

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