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mother_sheep
Nov 14, 2003, 4:00 PM
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What purpose do they serve? This is a serious question. If you're caught in an avalanche in the back country, they might be useful in helping authorities locate your body. But when caught in an avalanche, the likelyhood of you actually being rescued in time because you have a beacon, seems pretty unlikely. Please guide me if I'm wrong. I just don't get it.
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scottharms
Nov 14, 2003, 4:08 PM
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Contact your nearest Avalanche Association and see what they have to say, then sign up for an avi course. Then you'll know.
Cheers
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just_me
Nov 14, 2003, 4:22 PM
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A beacon alone is useless unless you are with people who know how to use them (in other words, find you while you are still alive). Better yet go with "backcountry smart" people who won't get you into that situation in the first place.
For lots of good info, check out the Colorado Avalanche Information Center. You can learn a lot of facts and figures to know better what you are getting in to.
http://geosurvey.state.co.us/avalanche/
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cryder
Nov 14, 2003, 4:24 PM
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Thanks for asking the question seriously... it deserves it.
Anytime you're caught in an avalanche you have a wide range of survivalbility that depends on everything from the terrain you're in, to the steps you took to get yourself out before being burried.
Sometimes people are killed while the slide is still moving. Sometimes they live burried for two hours with an avalung. Many times the lifespan of an avi victim is in the range of fifteen minutes... just barely enough time for a well trained and clearly thinking partner to locate you and dig you out. The idea behind becons is to take the largest and most time consuming step of out of the rescue effort - finding you. From there all of the other factors weigh in on wether you live or die.
In the effort to live long and play hard, every step and every decision add up. Well worth getting in the habit of making good ones sooner then later.
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vertical_reality
Nov 14, 2003, 4:30 PM
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I can't remember which show I saw this on but it said that when trapped by an avalanche your body melts some of the snow around you and it then turns into ice and you suffocate. You may have about 10 mins for someone to find you before its too late.
Not sure if this is true though.
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overlord
Nov 14, 2003, 4:31 PM
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if you plan to travel in an avalanche edangered area, the best way to be safe, apart from predicting avalanches and not going where theyre most likely to happen, is to have a beacon with every mamber of your group, everyone also must have a light snow showel and know how to use a beacon.
so if you are buried under the avalanche and are not kille by it instantly youll have much greater chance of your partners finding and recuing you before you suffocate. and most of avalanche victims could be rescued if they were found in time. avalung is also a good investment.
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paganmonkeyboy
Nov 14, 2003, 4:31 PM
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my .02$...ymmv
take the level one class for avalanche safety - you will learn a lot about the great white beast and see why beacons are useful but not by any means certain to find someone in time. A good course will do a simulated multi-victim burial - that alone will make you want to practice a *lot* with your back country partners
i'm jealous. my shoulder is getting rebuilt next week, and my beacon will be sitting idle for the majority of the season. I can hear it calling...
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mother_sheep
Nov 14, 2003, 4:36 PM
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In reply to: my .02$...ymmv take the level one class for avalanche safety - you will learn a lot about the great white beast and see why beacons are useful but not by any means certain to find someone in time. A good course will do a simulated multi-victim burial - that alone will make you want to practice a *lot* with your back country partners i'm jealous. my shoulder is getting rebuilt next week, and my beacon will be sitting idle for the majority of the season. I can hear it calling...
I just put up another post asking about where to take a course. Since you mentioned it here, might you offer any suggestions as to where to take one? Thanks!
And good luck with your shoulder. I guess in Colorado, if you have to be injured, there really isn't a good season to have that happen to you.
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therealdeal
Nov 14, 2003, 4:37 PM
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The facts are that the avalung has only saved one life--it is not a dependable device, or in anyway a safety net.
And if you can't find your partner and dig him up in under 5 minutes then you should not be in the backcountry, b/c you are obviously to lazy to practice and are suck! Unfortunately, this is most of the absolute monkeys that are out there.
The majority of people do live through avalanches (amazingly enough)--if you live through the slide (and don't die of trauma) then if you are located in under like six minutes I think the survival rate is like in the 90% range.
So it is quite worth owning a beacon and knowing how to use it! It is even more worthwhile to get educated.
Read 'The Avalanche Handbook' by Dave McClung. Bruce Trempers new book is oretty good as well.
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banff
Nov 14, 2003, 4:46 PM
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The only advice I can give is education, education, education. And then practice, practice, practice. Practice until you can do it in your sleep. Never go alone, and always sign in. The amount of time and money you put into your safety is cheaper than someone paying for the funeral.
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overlord
Nov 14, 2003, 4:48 PM
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try asking in your local gear shop or SAR station. they should have some info on avalnche classes. maybe even you mounaneering organization has them specialy or as a part of climbers training (mine does).
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sunsation
Nov 14, 2003, 4:55 PM
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Beacon, probe, shovel... three things you must have with you when travelling anywhere near potential avi terrain. And the peeps you are travelling with must have as well. And must be trained to use.
"Approximately 25% of avalanche victims are fatally injured by the motion of the avalanche... An additional 25% die from suffocation in the 30 minutes after burial. Therefore to have a 50% of saving someone... that person should be found and dug out within half an hour."
Page 51, Backcountry Avalance Awareness, by Bruce Jamieson, published by the Canadian Avalanche Association
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therealdeal
Nov 14, 2003, 5:09 PM
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Also, if you are going to take a class, go to Canada to do it. The courses offered by the American Avalanche Institute kind of suck (I know, I've taken everything they have to offer) The CAA is the way to go--they take it seriously!
Dig lots of holes in the snow and then put your head in there and see whats going on...
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paganmonkeyboy
Nov 14, 2003, 5:39 PM
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In reply to: Also, if you are going to take a class, go to Canada to do it. The courses offered by the American Avalanche Institute kind of suck (I know, I've taken everything they have to offer) The CAA is the way to go--they take it seriously! Dig lots of holes in the snow and then put your head in there and see whats going on...
hmmm. I took one from a guide up in Summit county via the AAI and I thought I learned a lot...haven't been to Canada for one though...
I think it will depend on the teacher giving the course too.
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alpnclmbr1
Nov 16, 2003, 4:43 AM
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As far as how good the AAI is: it is about as good as it gets for a publicly available course.
The staff for the level III course for mountain guides:
Rod Newcomb: for the science
Ron Matous: for the practical. (senior Exum guide)
Jim McCarthy: legal aspects (you should know this name)
Doug Chabot: Bozeman forecaster
Jim Woodmency: meteorologist
Rick Wyatt: UDOT forecaster in Little Cottonwood
Taking the course in jackson hole is probably best
If you think you can pay someone to teach you all you need to know you're going to be disappointed. If you hope to learn enough that you can develop your own basis for evaluating what is what through sustained time and effort in the field, then you will be very happy with what they have to offer.
As far as the ice mask scenario: it does happen. Even more likely is a ice plug forming in your throat. (wearing a face mask of some sort can help prevent this)
As far as the best way to be found in time: make an effort to stay on the surface of the slide by "swimming in the snow," as you feel the slide coming to a stop, lunge one hand towards the sky(the most common way to be found quickly) and keep the other hand near your face to make a breathing space.(also expand your chest as the snow comes to a stop)
Finding someone with a beacon shouldn't take more then 5 minutes. Then it is a matter of how long it takes to dig you out that is going to determine how likely you are to live.
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deleted
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Nov 18, 2003, 5:46 AM
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tracy --
good answers so far.
to simplify ... beacons serve a very valuable purpose (along with a shovel, probe, and the knowledge how to use them) in the backcountry. initially everyone's beacon is set on [i:1c13f5bdcc]transmit[/i:1c13f5bdcc]. in the case of a burial, those remaining on the surface switch to [i:1c13f5bdcc]receive[/i:1c13f5bdcc] and begin the search.
as a victim, our [i:1c13f5bdcc]only[/i:1c13f5bdcc] hope of being found alive is at the hands of those with which you were skiing. when you involve search & rescue you're pretty much going for a body recovery because of the time elapsed. after 30 minutes of burial -- or if you've been buried deeper than 3 meters -- i call dibs on your pack.
if we could teach everyone how to recognize and avoid avalanche terrain we could dispense with the techie gear and just go ski. but the sad truth is that the vast majority of avalanche victims trigger the slide under which they are then buried. sadder still is the fact that far too many victims never had a clue as to what kind of dangerous ground they were trading upon.
take a course. practice. never go alone
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captrescue
Dec 19, 2005, 7:48 AM
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Beacons do save lives only if you wear them and like others have said, those around you know how to safely and quickly manage the site. If you are buried with a beacon, your chances of survival increase enormously and of course is you leave it home or in your truck then, well lets hope that a fast and effective scuff search is underway. If you use the hill protect yourself and those that you are with. as far as the ava-lung goes, it can be effective but your chances of keeping it with you and ready to use when needed are very slim. the device does work but your chance once again getting it out as you are being drug down the hill, tumbling and crashing into obstructions, chunks of snow, etc,,, is only a false hope of security.
Know how to prepare and ware your beacon, and know how to use it. People have been saved and at the least we can find you much faster or you can use it to find your fellow outdoors-man.
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majid_sabet
Dec 19, 2005, 8:32 AM
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In reply to: What purpose do they serve? This is a serious question. If you're caught in an avalanche in the back country, they might be useful in helping authorities locate your body. But when caught in an avalanche, the likelyhood of you actually being rescued in time because you have a beacon, seems pretty unlikely. Please guide me if I'm wrong. I just don't get it.
I trained 60 mountain climbers for avalanche rescue in 2004, in part of my class each students was buried in a snow hole 7 feet x 3 feet x 5 feet deep for 4 minutes, then 5 student were taken from the group, they used probe and find the missing person, live under snow. Each student was terrified and they knew that they were racing against time. I interview each person and without a question, they learned that avalanche was the biggest nightmare of all. And if you asked me what makes me scared the most, I would say, been buried under avalanche.
90% of people cut in avalanche die due to lack of air, the rest die of hypothermia and injures. If you are cut in avalanche in back country, unless the rescue team is right next to you, they may be able to save you considering your beacon was on. If you had no beacon, generally you got less than 50% chance in 15 min. and less than 5% in 30 min to survive.
Most Avalanche beacons signal covers an area 100-300 feet in radius and 1-10 feet deep, again amount of water in the snow, or air pockets has a direct effect on beacon converge.
You need an average of 10 to 30 people to cover 100 feet wide slope using probe, Finding that many people to help you in back country search is a minimum 8-16 hours job. Even 10 best searchers with beacons cannot cover an area that fast to pull some one out. So best thing is to stay away from avalanche path and if you ever wanted to learn about avalanche, I would recommend you tolook for David Beck in Tahoe, Sierra Nevada area (California). He was born under avalanche and he knows snow.
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