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moeman
Nov 16, 2003, 5:43 PM
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Ok, so I'm going to start climbing multi-pitch trad soon, and i'll be doing most of the leading, so I was wondering, when I'm belaying the second, what device should I use to belay directly off the anchor? I'll be climbing on a single 10.2 mm rope. I am leaning towards using a GriGri becuase i already have one (i don't have a reverso) and becuase it would allow me to easily lower the second if neccesary. But what about the weight issue- a GriGri is heavy, or does it not really matter?
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janiszewski11
Nov 16, 2003, 5:58 PM
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If you already have a gri-gri just use that as it works well and the little added weight will not affect your climbing.
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geezergecko
Nov 16, 2003, 6:00 PM
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Wouldn't you want to use something that you could rappel with as well? And although you say you will be leading most of the time, it could be that you would have to second some of the time?
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moeman
Nov 16, 2003, 6:34 PM
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If I were to carry the GriGri, I would also have to carry an ATC or an 8 to rappell with. So in terms of minimising what i have to carry, the reverso is better, but I have a few concerns about it:
I am a cheap bastard, so I don't wan to have to buy another belay devise
I have heard that reversos don't work well with thicker ropes
I also am uncomfortable about not being able to lower with a reverso
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thinksinpictures
Nov 16, 2003, 7:29 PM
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In reply to: I also am uncomfortable about not being able to lower with a reverso
You should be uncomfortable about that. Fortunately, if you know what you're doing, it's not true.
The real claim is not that you can't lower, but that you can't lower if it's in auto-block and weighted, such as if your second is injured.
Even if this does happen, you can take it out of auto-block and lower, if you are prepared. See article here: http://www.usmga.net/guidelines/guidelinesreverso.htm
Edit: if you have any trouble understanding any of the instructions in the above article, make sure you know what you're doing before you try it. Practice the knots and technique in your living room before you have to use them out on the rock, especially in an emergency situation.
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ropeburn
Nov 16, 2003, 8:06 PM
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In reply to: I am a cheap bastard, so I don't wan to have to buy another belay devise
The reverso is cheaper than an nite at a bar.
In reply to: I have heard that reversos don't work well with thicker ropes
I have used mine with my 10.5 and 10.2 and had no problems. I've used it with someone elses 11 and don't remember having any problems. I have heard they arn't great with small ropes and this is why petzl can out with the reversino.
In reply to: I also am uncomfortable about not being able to lower with a reverso
You can, you just need to learn how. See post and link above.
:mrgreen:
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moeman
Nov 16, 2003, 8:14 PM
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EEeeeeee I looked at those instructions. I have heard before that there was a way to lower with a reverso, but thats a little bit too complicated for my tastes. I'm kinda worried that in a real emergency, I would probably panic and screw that up. Maybe I'll just stuck with the GriGri
One other thing- what do you think of the wieght issue? Does it really matter?
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no_limit
Nov 16, 2003, 9:23 PM
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ATC for leader
Munter hitch for second
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hexitup
Nov 16, 2003, 9:51 PM
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If you've got the Grigri, use it. Sure you've got to take another device to rappel (well, actually you don't), but there is no sense in buying yet another device to save a small amount of weight, and besides, as you (moeman) said, it looks a bit complicated to lower with a reverso, or at least a bit more complicated than pulling the lever or the Grigri. As for the Munter hitch, while it is A.simpler B.cheaper and C.lighter, it also twists the rope like no other. While its uses are limitless, I think that is best used as something for more emergency situations where an ATC, Reverso, or Grigri aren't available, or are not practical (escaping the belay for example or dropping said belay device). And as for the weight issue: take a dump before you start up the climb and drop a load equal to several Grigris
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njbourne
Nov 17, 2003, 5:58 AM
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In reply to: But what about the weight issue- a GriGri is heavy, or does it not really matter?
If weight matters or if it doesn't is a personnel issue. personally I think it should always be a primary concern.
Its tough to lower a second with the Reverso once a fall has locked it up.
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coldclimb
Nov 17, 2003, 6:25 AM
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I love the reverso. :)
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jeffvoigt
Nov 17, 2003, 7:23 AM
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I have used both a reverso and a gri-gri for the same purpose. I would go with the reverso. It is much lighter, and more funtional than a gri-gri. The lowering is a bit tricky, but I have done it with the reverso, and it's not too bad. Just practice with it a couple of times before you need to do it on an actual route. Plus it's only $21!
http://www.climbingjunky.com
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karlbaba
Nov 17, 2003, 7:34 AM
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I carry both a reverso and a gri-gri up all but the hardest trad climbs. I rap and belay the leader with the reverso but belay the second with the Gri-Gri.
The Gri-Gri belays WAY easier and smoother with a 10.2 rope, and is infinately easier to lower the second with.
I often do most, or all, the leading. Having it casual at the belay lets me rest up, or take pictures with low stress and effort in a safe way.
Both devices can do cool tricks if things go south.
Peace
Karl
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poohbear
Nov 17, 2003, 9:48 AM
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i would give a caution against belaying the leader with a gri-gri on trad. the problem is that the gri-gri locks right onto the rope when the leader falls, thus not creating a "dynamic" belay (i.e. your atc will let the rope slide a little through) thus creating a softer catch and (most importantly!) less force on your gear, which will of course result in less of a chance of a gear pulling. i must also say that i was much relieved to here that someone else in the universe actually uses a munter hitch to belay the second. use this once from a hanging belay, and i'd say you'll be hooked. if you haven't learned what a munter or clove hitch is, you're missing out big time. also, if you belay a second with an atc, be sure to run the rope back up to the anchor through a piece of gear so the pull will be up on your harness when your follower falls. also a great way to belay.
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mustclimb69
Nov 17, 2003, 1:30 PM
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Cant rap with a GriGri as effectively, but still can rap.
GriGris have been looked down upon because it shock loads the sysem and provides a false sense of security. I would bring a reverso. light, compact, easy to rap off of, capable of auto locking but be careful if you have to unlock the reverso it can jam when belaying a second and trying to let slack out. this isnt always a problem because your very rarely paying out slack for a second.
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karlbaba
Nov 17, 2003, 5:23 PM
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The problem with belaying the second with a Munter is that this method is far more likely to create a kinky and twisted rope than any other method. This could be a huge safety concern when it's the leader's turn to climb and the second is unable to feed rope as needed on demand because the kinks won't feed through the device.
To me, that's more dangerous than a more static Gri-Gri for belaying the leader. The rope stretch is where the catching of the fall happens. If the fall factor is high, you will be pulled up, which is another bit of give. At least it's not possible to drop the guy/gal. That's why, even though hard aid climbers need to reduce forces on pieces as much or more than anybody, the gri-gri is the wall belay device of choice for hard aid.
Still I admit, I usually switch to the reverso to belay the leader since belaying the leader with a gri-gri is more pumping.
I don't mind carrying two devices. The reverso weighs nothing. I've had to loan it to a partner or two when they dropped their device
Peace
karl
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pico23
Nov 18, 2003, 4:53 AM
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In reply to: But what about the weight issue- a GriGri is heavy, or does it not really matter?
Use a munter hitch and save the money on the reverso and leave the grigri at home. I only use my reverso when I'm belaying two seconds or if I am planning on "assisting" my partner up the pitch. Otherwise the munter is superior and needs less gear.
The grigri is IMO much to heavy to lug up a trad climb.
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fredo
Nov 18, 2003, 4:15 PM
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Reverso... LIghter, much cheaper, belay 1 or 2 2nd's no worries with "thicker" ropes, I use a 10.5. Rapel, ascend more versitile. Takes some practice to get use to but I love mine.
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deafclimber
Nov 18, 2003, 4:51 PM
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i love reverso. i use it for a pitch or multipitches and rappelling...
Reverso slows u down when u do rappelling. i dont have a problem with it. be sure to have a backup belay device in case.
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radistrad
Nov 19, 2003, 2:54 AM
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I think one of the coolest things I have learned (from Karl) is to use the gri gri attached to the anchor to belay the second. It sure makes it easy when your second has to hang on the rope. And as Karl says it frees one up to relax more, but you still need to pay attention to what you are doing and don't thread the gri gri wrong!
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jhump
Nov 19, 2003, 3:38 AM
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The meunter hitch is best for bringing up the second, IMO. Very fast to set up and only requires a pear shaped biner. Rap with a bar brake and leave all the devices behind.......alpinelicious.
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reno
Nov 19, 2003, 4:08 AM
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According to the original question: "what device should I use to belay directly off the anchor?" why couldn't you just use a regular ATC?
Now if we're talking about autoblocking the second, then yes, a reverso or B-52 or similar device is needed. But if you're just hooking the belay device to the anchor, you can use an ATC. Makes it easy to pay out slack, lower if needed, and escaping the belay is not an issue (though you should still know how to do that if you're gonna climb multi-pitch trad lines.)
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arlen
Nov 19, 2003, 5:48 AM
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It's hard to take up slack when the Reverso is below shoulder level. Likewise it's awkward to unload it by stepping in a sling when the anchor point is low. A GriGri is much easier in both respects. But personally, I prefer the lighter and more versatile Reverso.
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brianc
Nov 19, 2003, 1:44 PM
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In reply to: According to the original question: "what device should I use to belay directly off the anchor?" why couldn't you just use a regular ATC?
I can't imagine (possibly b/c I've never tried), but seems that it would be awfully difficult to lock off - esp. for any real period of time - an atc hooked into the anchor. I.e., locking off by holding the rope *up.*
That said, all I use for belaying anything is an ATC - though been thinking I likes the autoblock capabilities of a B-52.
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cragmasterp
Nov 19, 2003, 3:04 PM
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For belaying the second on multi-pitch trad I always use a Munter Hitch.
You need to learn and use this knot. This will get you out of trouble if you ever drop a belay piece. and for bringing up a second it is the simplest and most effective way. I usually clip right right into my cordelette anchor with a large locker and tie the munter right in.
On Belay! :wink:
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