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gyngve
Nov 27, 2003, 12:08 AM
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what ever came of it?
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moeman
Nov 27, 2003, 1:32 AM
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explain. What lawsuit?
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moabbeth
Nov 27, 2003, 3:10 AM
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For some history on this, I reprinted this from a WMR report when the suit was filed:
A Gross Negligence Lawsuit was filed against San Juan Mt. Guides & Jeff Lowe over a guiding fatality in Ouray Ice Park on 1/17/01. The fatality took place in the Ouray Ice Park while Pete Ro was being guided/instructed in Jeff Lowe's and San Juan Mountain Guides' Ice Master's Seminar after the Ouray Ice Festival 2001. Ro fell to his death from an ice climb in the park after being taken off top rope belay before reaching the top of the climb.
I never heard there was a resolution to the suit. Good inital question.
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csoles
Nov 27, 2003, 3:50 AM
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This is a sad story resulting from poor communication between climber and belayer. It would not, and should not IMO, have gone to trial but a competing guide, who wasn't even there, stirred things up. Last I heard, the case wasn't dismissed and is still pending.
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gunked
Nov 27, 2003, 9:57 PM
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Out of curiosity, was it the same guide who almost single-handedly messed with the Devil's Tower access, because he wasn't willing to observe closure or compromise in any way about usage of the cliff. It had something to do with, to my best recollection, that the Tower is sacred Indian land.
The same guide who repeatedly slandered and lied about other guides in the Ouray area. I forgot the reasons and most of the BS, however, everytime I heard this gentleman's name (initials A.P.) it was ALWAYS surrounded by selfish controversy. The kind that gives climbing a bad taste in the mouth's of landowners and law-makers.
It is my only hope that EVERYBODY that goes climbing considers themselves responsible for their own actions. As I best remember, the climber that died in this lawsuit thought he was still on belay at the top of the climb after an agreement made on the ground that he was going to take himself off at the top and stay there. Apparently nobody could yell loud enough and fast enough to stop the plummet. Gross negligence on Jeff Lowe's part was being argued because he had a bit of a cold and couldn't yell loud and fast enough to stop his, now, dead client from doing other than he agreed to.
I REALLY HOPE THIS CASE WAS DROPPED!!! It is lawsuits like this that will gradually ban all outdoor freedom's in this country as it may or may not be more cost effective to our "friends" in Washington.
I'm just a little peeved about this. Sorry for the negativity! :roll:
Just Curious?
-Jason
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hawgdrver
Nov 27, 2003, 11:48 PM
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Deleted
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moabbeth
Nov 28, 2003, 12:16 AM
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In reply to: As I best remember, the climber that died in this lawsuit thought he was still on belay at the top of the climb after an agreement made on the ground that he was going to take himself off at the top and stay there. Apparently nobody could yell loud enough and fast enough to stop the plummet. Gross negligence on Jeff Lowe's part was being argued because he had a bit of a cold and couldn't yell loud and fast enough to stop his, now, dead client from doing other than he agreed to.
Yep, I climbed with someone through SJMG in Ouray the following winter, he told me about what happened. it was a tragic miscommunication but wasn't something that was actually Jeff's fault.
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brianthew
Nov 28, 2003, 12:27 AM
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I read in a magazine (I think R&I) that the suit was dismissed by whatever judge was in charge of it, and nothing ever came of it.
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bishopclimber
Dec 1, 2003, 8:47 PM
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In reply to: I read in a magazine (I think R&I) that the suit was dismissed by whatever judge was in charge of it, and nothing ever came of it. |
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jasona
Dec 2, 2003, 9:46 PM
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I agree that climbing is dangerous and you accept the risks but if you are climbing with a certified guide company and they drop you because they took you off belay too early then there is more to it than just inherent danger. I don't claim to know the details of this situation but if that is the case then something must be done to prevent it in the future. Not that I am saying his wife should sue but somehow it has to be brought to light and not just swept under the carpet because "climbing is dangerous". If I take a skydiving course and the company neglects to pack my chute and I die then they are liable.
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csoles
Dec 2, 2003, 10:01 PM
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In reply to: I don't claim to know the details of this situation
You don't.
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moabbeth
Dec 2, 2003, 11:05 PM
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In reply to: I agree that climbing is dangerous and you accept the risks but if you are climbing with a certified guide company and they drop you because they took you off belay too early then there is more to it than just inherent danger. I don't claim to know the details of this situation but if that is the case then something must be done to prevent it in the future.
He didn't drop him. And from what I heard, Pete was an experienced ice climber. The accident occured during a masters clinic. And yeah, you don't know the details. It was miscommunication. That can happen to anyone anytime, regardless of if you're an expert or newbie. Sometimes accidents happen. But in our blame obsessed legal culture, lawyers always come along and need to assign blame to someone usually in the form of civil lawsuits that line their own pockets. :twisted:
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marcel
Dec 2, 2003, 11:17 PM
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In reply to: Out of curiosity, was it the same guide who almost single-handedly messed with the Devil's Tower access, because he wasn't willing to observe closure or compromise in any way about usage of the cliff. It had something to do with, to my best recollection, that the Tower is sacred Indian land.
Nope, not the same guy.
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jasona
Dec 2, 2003, 11:49 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: I don't claim to know the details of this situation You don't.
Obviously I said I don't. Thanks for clearing that up.
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csoles
Dec 3, 2003, 12:33 AM
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In reply to: Nope, not the same guy.
Umm, it is. Gunked called it, I just didn't want to go there.
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gunked
Dec 6, 2003, 3:10 PM
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Clyde, good point about 'said' climber. No point in hashing up old crap unless something positive is going to be done about it. I do want to finish that statement off with "We, as climbers, are an endangered species. Our freedoms really do ride a delicate line in Washington (DC!) in the eyes of our "elected" law-makers. Selfishness invites controversy. Controversy invites conflict. If law-makers want to invite conflict to end a controversy quickly and easily (for them), THEY WILL!"
As far as the lawsuit goes, does anyone actually have an answer as to the outcome (if there was one).? I've heard different things from different sources. Alot of our freedoms, I believe, rest on the case. A $10 million lawsuit could greatly affect the cost of insurance for any adventure company, from rock and ice guiding to challenge courses, effectively putting them out of business.
If anybody has any first-hand knowledge or a website or something, please say so.
Thanx,
Jason :D
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gekko
Dec 6, 2003, 3:55 PM
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This was the only article I could pull up with Google. Some of the links are no longer being used and there was no update, I just wanted to put this up because it has the story in brief as well as the impact that lawsuits of that magnitude could have on outdoor recreation.
http://outside.away.com/outside/news/200207/200207_warning_1.adp
-js-
added note: You are right though about the lawmakers - I am in north VA and there is legislation on the table to outlaw live Christmas trees in some dwellings (like apartments and condos) because they have been deemed a fire hazard. I do not doubt that a few large law-suits could take it's toll on the climbing and outdoor community.
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takeme
Dec 6, 2003, 6:50 PM
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In reply to: This was the only article I could pull up with Google. Some of the links are no longer being used and there was no update, I just wanted to put this up because it has the story in brief as well as the impact that lawsuits of that magnitude could have on outdoor recreation. http://outside.away.com/outside/news/200207/200207_warning_1.adp -js- added note: You are right though about the lawmakers - I am in north VA and there is legislation on the table to outlaw live Christmas trees in some dwellings (like apartments and condos) because they have been deemed a fire hazard. I do not doubt that a few large law-suits could take it's toll on the climbing and outdoor community.
Gekko, thanks for posting this link. Really interesting article. I'd have to agree with just about everybody else in this thread so far that, in my gut, I'd hate to see this lawsuit succeed. It seems that potentially, it could destroy the entire guiding industry. Beyond that, it seems that such lawsuits, if successful, could certainly lead to more government regulation of climbing. Some of my favorite places to climb are national parks such as Rocky Mountain, Black Canyon, Canyonlands, etc. These are pretty wild places--if the government takes a more active role, it will be to do one of two things: either ban climbing outright, or go the opposite direction and sanitize it in the name of safety (e.g. adding lots of fixed belay anchors, bolting all the scary sections, etc.). I don't want to seen any of these things happen!
At the same time, the description of what happened from that article is kind of disturbing:
"Lucy Creamer, 31, a noted British climber also taking the class, offered to belay him. Ro, Creamer, and Lowe agreed that when Ro safely reached the top of the route, he would unhitch and wait to be picked up at a nearby parking area on the vehicle-accessible upper rim of the canyon, rather than rappel down. As Ro swung his ice tools, Lowe scrambled up a nearby gully to a point where he could see both the top and bottom of the route and, as he later stated in a police report, "aid in communication" between his two students.
"Ro climbed La Ventana in good style but was slowed by its difficult upper pillar. As he neared the top and disappeared from Creamer's sight, she shouted to ask if he had finished. Reports conflict about Ro's reply. Lowe and one other climber believe they heard him say "Off belay!" Creamer and another climber heard "OK!" In either event, Ro seemed to be acknowledging that he had topped out, which Creamer took to mean she could release the safety rope. (Language barriers were not an issue here. Though Ro lived and worked in Japan, he was born and raised in California and English was his native tongue.)
"Creamer unhitched the rope from her harness. From his vantage point, Lowe recognized the dangerous confusion and tried to warn both Creamer and Ro. But he was battling bronchitis that day, and apparently his hoarse voice didn't carry. "In a matter of a few seconds, Pete was taken off belay," Lowe told the police, "and shortly afterwards he inexplicably leaned back, as though he expected to be lowered."
What bothers me is that, according to this account, confusion still seemed to exist at the time that Creamer took Ro off belay. If any doubt existed (for example, if I want to be lowered, I generally say "OK", which I would NOT say if I was taking myself off belay), why not wait until Lowe could come down the gully and confirm that Ro had walked off, or explain that he appeared to be leaning back (which is tragic, but not "inexplicable")contrary to their agreement. It also seems unfortunate that Lowe took it upon himself to "aid in communication", when he wasn't able to do that effectively in what can only be described as a life or death situation.
Basically, when I look at this case in a vacuum, it seems to be a legitmate lawsuit--I'm still not sure how I'd feel about the verdict, given the other legal intricaies involving negligence as described in the article. But when I look at it in the larger context of our society and the fate of climbing regulations in this country, I really have to hope that it fails. My head is saying one thing, my heart another. Any way you look at it--what a tragedy.
Charles
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gunked
Dec 7, 2003, 1:32 AM
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OR....he could've lost his balance! We'll never know the real reason he fell. Either way, I'm every bit as much to blame for Pete Ro's death as San Juan Mountain Guides by talking highly of an obviously dangerous activity (no, not driving...ice-climbing)and therefore, verbally promoting and, yes, at times convincing people (against their will as they were so excited about the prospect of doing something so healthy, good-natured AND outside that they were unable to make a sound judgment as a result) to try and possibly be maimed or killed in said activity. I better take the climbing stickers off of my van before my unborn children get sued for their father's crimes against humanity.
I should be a fuckin' lawyer!!!
I gotta stop thinking about this for now, I'm getting a headache.
-Jason :?
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gunked
Dec 7, 2003, 1:34 AM
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Sorry, I almost forgot. Thank you very much for providing that link. It was very informative, if not really dis-heartening.
AAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHH! :cry:
-Jason :?
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maldaly
Dec 7, 2003, 2:49 AM
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A few months ago Jeff settled the suit. He was unable to discuss the details with me because of the settlement terms but it sounds like everything worked out OK. It was not dismissed. I think it was way less expensive to settle than to defend. Our legal and insurance system sucks.
Accortding to witnesses who were at the top, Ro yelled down that he was off belay, then they heard Lucy confirm it from the bottom. So much for communication problems. After Lucy confirmed the Ro was off, she took him off. At that time, Ro was just below the anchors at the top, on kind of slabby ground. He dinked around a bit with his gear or glasses or whatever, then leaned back to lower off. And so he did.
It's a real bummer but this is the third time this has happened to friends that I know personally. First time was with Rich Gottlieb after he topped out on a route at City of Rocks. He was lucky because the 80 footer only broke his pelvis. In September of '02, Crain Demartino topped out on Whiteman at Lumpy Ridge. He and his belayer had already agreed that he would rap off rather than lower. Craig yelled "off"; his belayer did so after confirming, then Craig leaned back to lower off. He fell 120 feet to the ground and is lucky to be alive. You can read about this accident in the ANAM for 2002. Last monday (Dec 2) he had his right foot amputated due to those injuries.
Be careful out there. Get in the habit of lowering yourself out until you are certain your belayer has you on.
BTW, csoles is absolutely correct about said guide and his history. If A.P. hadn't got ahold of Ro's widow and convinced her that this was gross negligence on Jeff's part, the law suit never would have happened. It looks like AP is single-handedly doing everything he can to get the ice park shut down.
MCD
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gunked
Dec 7, 2003, 3:31 AM
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Thanks for the info Malcolm. It's scary that even with the witnesses' input, the case wasn't dropped. It's even scarier that one pissed off climber can do that much damage. I wasn't aware that he actually helped start the lawsuit.
One Prick + One Lawyer + One vulnerable widow + The American Justice System = Potential disaster for the entire climbing community
EEEEK! :shock:
-Jason :roll: :(
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organic
Dec 7, 2003, 5:22 AM
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Do they usually make people sign consent forms for things like this? It sounds harsh and sad(May he rest in peace) But if you climb you are responsible for your safety, if he was confused as to what would happen when he reached the top he should have asked or spoken up. If he slipped, that sucks, either way bad things happen to the best of us, one man died because of an "accident", which is an accident, nothing purposely done harmful, why try and ruin someone elses life because of it? You do not honor someones memory by placing a monetary value on their life. Just my thoughts.
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chirp
Dec 7, 2003, 5:29 AM
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mmm edited for brevity
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sandbag
Dec 17, 2003, 7:10 PM
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I guess I'll chime in with my scathing logic now:
I dont know much about (nor care to either) the pedantic ranting on the 'legality' issues and culpability, negligence etc....the GLARING things i've noticed in the acounts were a lack of communication between the climber and the belayer. If you are climbing and cant communicate, i.e. vocally, or with rope tugs, and new school radios, then youre basically free soloing. plain and simple. Im a safety dork, I look at my belayer and expect unequivocal assurance and wait to get a response back so i know that they are watching me, and WE both know whats going on together. Its fun to climb, its not fun to fall. The responsibility once again, lays in the hands of the climber.
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