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drunkenmonkey
Mar 1, 2002, 4:58 PM
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hey there gang, you guys seem to know everything there is to know about big walling and i know ****. So can you tell me the best way to climb in a three? Is this a good idea at all? whats the most efficient way of doing this.
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atg200
Mar 1, 2002, 5:57 PM
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the best reference i've seen on this so far is here:
http://www.fishproducts.com/howto/ht3person.html
i've never actually climbed in a team of three, so i can't comment further yet. 3 of us are doing some zion walls in a few weeks, so we'll post about our experiences.
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wigglestick
Mar 6, 2002, 2:34 PM
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If done right three people can move faster than a group of 2. But in my experience it just adds an additional 50% to the Clusterf#&$
Edit: I also remember seeming a good description on www.tradgirl.com written by Amanda Tarr.
[ This Message was edited by: wigglestick on 2002-03-06 06:35 ]
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passthepitonspete
Mar 18, 2002, 7:40 AM
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Climbing in a team of three can be extremely efficient, or an epic clusterf*ck.
The whole trick is to stay "organicized," and make sure that the leader is always moving up.
This means that you should be leading in blocks and short fixing. There should be at least two designated leaders, each of whom is capable of self-belayed ("solo") leading. You should have zip line capability for nearly two full pitches to facilitate the passing of gear upward.
Ideally you will have close to two full racks of gear, and you will need two lead lines, preferably of at least 60 m.
The sequence is as follows:
Leading in blocks means that the designated leader will lead several pitches in a row. Each group of pitches that he or she leads is called a block
The leader will be trailing a zip line, usually attached to the back of his harness, and always attached with a locker. This is a critical link - you don't want to use a standard carabiner
As soon as the leader reaches the upper station, he pulls up the top of the second lead line which is attached with a locker to the bottom of the zip line
At the same time as he pulls up the top of the second lead line, he pulls up the tops of the haul lines
It is essential that you do NOT attach the tops of the haul lines and the top of the second lead line at one point, or you will get a huge clusterf*ck. Separate their points of connection by about four feet, and save yourself some heartache. As the leader pulls up the ropes, the other team members should be guiding them up with a bit of tension to keep the ropes from twisting around each other, especially if it is windy
If there is spare gear available, then now is the time to send it up to the leader. Put it up as high on the zip line as possible, above the other ropes' point of attachment
The leader pulls up as much of this second lead line as is available, and "short fixes" this second lead line. He then calls for Climber #2 to jug on up
Without waiting for Climber #2 to reach him, the leader begins solo leading the next pitch using a self belay. He uses whatever gear is left on the rack, and whatever spare gear was sent up with the tops of the haul lines
Once Climber #2 reaches the upper belay station, he sets up the haul lines for hauling so that Climber #3 can release the pigs
In the meantime, Climber #2 pulls up the bottom end of the second lead line, which Climber #3 has released, and puts the leader on an assisted belay. The leader can now tie into the top end of the second lead line
As Climber #2 pulls down the extra rope between him and the leader, the leader must simultaneously feed all of the rope through his self belay system back to the station while the belayer (Climber #2) recovers the lead rope through the belay device as it is fed
Once the leader passes all of the remaining rope to the belayer and has reached the end of the rope where he is tied, the self-belay is disengaged
Climber #2 belays the leader and hauls the pigs
Climber #3 breaks down the lower belay and cleans the pitch
It is imperative that Climber #3 has the capacity to zip gear up to Climber #2, so that gear that is used on the lower pitch can be zipped up to the leader. Otherwise the team could grind to a halt for want of gear. This means that the zip line between Climber #3 and Climber #2 is long enough to zip gear up, and also long enough so that Climber #3 can pull it back down to clip on more gear as he cleans
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johnhenry
Mar 29, 2002, 2:25 AM
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At the risk of beating a dead horse...
Please read my article titled:
A Gumby's Guide to Three Person Big Wall Technique
http://www.rockclimbing.com/articles/index.php?ID=68
In my opinion the difference between a cluster f**k and a well oiled machine lies mostly with rope management. Consider five-six ropes in spagetti-style and you start to see my point. Rope hooks are the best devices for three-person rope management because(unlike a rope bag) they allow you to easily switch ends.
Dr. Pitons system is of course "right on" and I have short fixed with three. But he assumes several things:
1.)your aiding the next pitch or you have brought a solo device that let's you comfortably free climb
2.)the second person to reach the anchor has enough mass to get the bags off by him/herself (or can construct a 2:1 system)
3.)you have enough rope left to short fix i.e. your not running much together. I probably wouldn't bother if I had just ten or twelve feet left
4.)your comfortable rope-soloing. Shucks, I didn't bring two buddies along so that I could act like I am soloing... I am kinda chicken.
Actually, I wrote this before Dr. Piton's discourse. Rock On! John
[ This Message was edited by: johnhenry on 2002-03-28 18:28 ]
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crackaddict
Mar 29, 2002, 3:09 AM
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I know my reply is about free routes and not aid. It wont be as extensive and as good as the above. But I wanted to put in my two cents about climbing in threes up long free routes.
If you want to do routes quick and no hassels dont go with 3.
It works good if the other two can help carry the load. But if you end up doing all the leading because for some reason the other two are slow and you just dont have the time to spare. Don't do it. You will quickly turn into a guide and the route will take all day. I found out the hard way when my two partners and I went to Yosemite. those two were useless as tits on a boarhog when we got there. I ended up doing everything. So pick your partners wisely. And only do free routes in 3s when everyone can do their fair share.
Thats all I have to say.
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passthepitonspete
Mar 29, 2002, 4:39 AM
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While I agree with John's points 1, 3 and 4, I strongly disagree with the Traditional Big Wall Technology John suggests in point 2.
Aid Climbing Forum aficionados should be prepared to cut John a bit of slack in this instance, for he is new here, and has not yet become acquainted with the better way.
Fortunately, John has come to the right place to learn about the BETTER WAY to attach his load to the anchor so he need not ever again struggle with unclipping it. (How silly, eh?)
Hopefully, John, you will read the post linked above, and nod along saying,
"I 'get it!' "
Welcome aboard, mate!
Cheers,
Dr. Piton
P.S. With respect to your article, I agree with it, save and except fixing your lead rope to the power point with a figure-of-8 on a bight.
Around here, we use the alpine butterfly knot.
This is because we are for the most part lazy old farts, and we do not wish to waste our time and energy struggling to untie a figure-of-8 on a bight, any more than we wish to struggle to unclip our pigs from the anchor.
Around here, we call this apparent dichotomy of indolence and technical brilliance the better way.
Understanding the better way is a fundamental step in the journey from Young Bull to Old Bull.
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crackaddict
Mar 29, 2002, 4:47 AM
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Ahh! Pete! The young bull, old bull. Thats good stuff!
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krustyklimber
Mar 29, 2002, 6:56 AM
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No, not yet , but he'll be along soon (which is funny 'cause he doesn't aid climb) and you'll recognize his friendly demeanor, and his bloodlust for Pete so far him and I are on friendly terms, but I can see there being an end to that eventually.
Jeff
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flamer
Jun 28, 2003, 9:39 PM
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Hey john!
Great post!
In regard's to Pete's response....
Anywhere he said "WE" you should replace that with "SOME OF US".
And anywhere he said " THE BETTER WAY" you should replace that with "PETE"S WAY".
I see you're a Buddahist! That's interesting, I wonder if meditating and such helps you with your climbing? I would suspect it would!
Enjoyed your post! Carry on!
josh
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calamity_chk
Jul 1, 2003, 10:48 PM
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In reply to: At the risk of beating a dead horse... Please read my article titled: A Gumby's Guide to Three Person Big Wall Technique In my opinion the difference between a cluster f**k and a well oiled machine lies mostly with rope management
nicely stated, and thanks for the simple systems. they are immensely helpful to this little gumby.
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epic_ed
Sep 10, 2003, 6:54 AM
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Giving this a bump since the same question has been asked recently.
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bigwalljunkie
Sep 15, 2003, 7:35 PM
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i have climbed my last 3 routes as a team of 3 and although you dont lead as much the work load is split up and its easier to haul, especially if the pig gets stuck under or a roof or whatever, PLUS hanging out at the belay is always more fun since you can crank tunes and shoot the shiite while hanging out...
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