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Questions for an aid gumby
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1269topper


Dec 5, 2003, 9:57 PM
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Questions for an aid gumby
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Here are some of my questions, but before I jump to them let me familarize you. I want to start to aid this winter, I live minutes from Seneca so clean aid is really were I plan to start. Plus I will be dealing with winter conditions too.

First what kind of aiders would oyu recommend two sets of adjustable aiders? I been reading John longs book on Big walls and I saw not menton of these gadgets are they all hipe or should I learn my turns so to speak with step aiders.

The second is daisy chains, I have been using a adjustable for some time I really enjoy the simplicty and how precise it is. Are there any advantages to a multi loop style dasy chain? Would be advatashious to have both, one of each? Or just two adjustable dasies.

Third when jugging should I only use jumairs on a static rope ? I really don't like the looks of those teeth on my dynamic rope I lead with.


Please feel free to add any comments for I now a gumby again so let it rip. Thanks for your all help


ropeburn


Dec 5, 2003, 10:10 PM
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hey topper...
its funny I thought about all these questions today as well, so I will be reading along when the heavy hitters of aid chime in. Go look in the articles section... there is one on constructing russian aiders. I think I'll be doing this soon, they look pretty interesting and functional without out a lot of mess. Check em out

Maybe I'll come down and we can gumby around learning this stuff....

:mrgreen:


1269topper


Dec 5, 2003, 10:28 PM
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Cool

I been itching to do this for a while now (aid ) I figure this will be a great winter time adventure. Just watch out when I start saying Hey bubba aah hoold my beer you know were in trouble :shock:

Ropeburn did you figure out when your free for old rag?


epic_ed


Dec 5, 2003, 11:08 PM
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Pete's index to all things aid related is one place to start. Sift through the mad ramblings and bold face typing where you can, but there's some good info in there. Too tired to post more tonight.

http://www.rockclimbing.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=22175

Ed


elcapinyoazz


Dec 6, 2003, 1:02 AM
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Alright dudes, I'll keep this as short and to the point as possible.

Everyone has their own favorite set-up for aiding. It all works, and no one particular method is inherently better than another. I know guys who use two, three, and four aiders, and girls who use alternating step and who use ladder style. Flyin Brian uses a single aider, Ammon described that system in another recent post. Each method has it's pluses and minuses. The only way to really find out what's best for you is to try doing some pitches with each method.

The Russian system is very clean, and top stepping is easier than in regular aiders. Some folks say you can't get as high in the russians. I think on low angle rock this may be true, but on steep rock you can probably get higher on the russians. I switched to the Russians after many walls using three regular aiders, and I'll never go back. The exception is on a mostly free route with a pitch of two of aid, in that case I'd use two compact aiders and regular daisies.

Adjustable daisies really came on the scene after the Long/Middendorf "Big Walls" book was already published. That book basically represents typical aid climbing practice circa the late 1980s / early 1990s. Most climbers who try adjustables after using a regular daisy-fifi set-up prefer the adjustables. Some don't like them.

Re: Jumars on a dynamic line. It's a fact of life. You're always jugging the lead line while cleaning (with a few rare exceptions). Don't worry about it, just watch out for the rope running over sharp edges where the bouncing action of jugging could abrade it (climbers have died this way). The jumar teeth will eventually rough up the sheath a little, but it's not really an issue. Just give the rope the once-over every now and again. The sheath is really just protecting the core strands. Wall ropes and adjustable daises have a life span of about one hard season. Some ropes don't even last that long. That's just how it is, wall climbing ain't cheap so save a little money by drinking OE and Cobra instead of Sammy Smith's Oatmeal Stouts so you can replace them. A couple of companies make ropes with beefier sheaths, designed specifically for wall climbing...they might be worth a look.


elcapbuzz


Dec 6, 2003, 1:26 AM
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jjgjhfjhgjkb/'lkn


joe


Dec 6, 2003, 9:32 AM
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In reply to:
jjgjhfjhgjkb/'lkn

i think ammon makes a good point here.


occlimbr


Dec 6, 2003, 9:45 AM
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In reply to:
jjgjhfjhgjkb/'lkn

I strongly disagree. I find that an insult to my home country.


bigwalling


Dec 6, 2003, 10:40 AM
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In reply to:
In reply to:
jjgjhfjhgjkb/'lkn

i think ammon makes a good point here.

I'm just confused.


elcapbuzz


Dec 6, 2003, 11:27 AM
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Haa haa, I'm confused too. I tried to reply to this last night. My reply wouldn't upload, so I hit my keyboard and logged off.

(Here's what I wrote)

I know you didn't ask about ascenders but, since you mentioned that you will be learning in winter/icey conditions, I would make sure the camming device on your ascenders are "pronounced". Otherwise you will get a lot of slippage on an icey rope.

In my opinion, adjustable aiders are hype. Sure, they have their moments of convience, BUT.... your going to spend more time messing with that damn buckle more often than getting on with the climbing at hand. Start out by using a traditional aider. One that you can easily step into (I like the Yates speed aider).

You can always go back and try the adjustable aider AFTER you learn the ins-and-outs of wall climbing.

Diaisies? I would stick with the adjustables. BUT, also learn how to use a Fifi (tie a pigtail in the eyehole for easy removal of a loop). The adjustable daisies are used by most wall climbers. I personally don't use them that much because I try and climb my aiders as fast as I can and focus on the next piece... versus, messing with another buckle... and then readjusting the same buckle, EVERYTIME. I like the freedom the traditoinal daisy gives me.

Ok, your third question. Yes, you have a genuine concern about those teeth on your dynamic rope. Remember.... "Technique". Practice on your static line. Push your ascender up the rope, BEFORE you pull the camming device. This will help prevent snagging the sheath.

Your going to have to jug on your dynamic cord, sooner or later. How else are you going to clean the pitch? You can NOT jug your static line if/when you decide to climb a wall. It just wont work.

Hope this helps. PM me if you need further info.

It's late, I'm going to sleep now.

Cheers, Ammon

PS- I'm in Iowa for a few days...... does anyone know if there's ANY climbing in Iwoa? CHEERS!!!!


jimdavis


Dec 6, 2003, 2:57 PM
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I dunno, Mark Synnott has been using 2 normal daisys and 2 alpine aiders on just about everything he does. If one of the best Big Wall climbers in the world doesn't need adjustable aiders and daisys, neither do I.

I'll be saving my money for more cams/ nuts.


flamer


Dec 6, 2003, 4:06 PM
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In reply to:
PS- I'm in Iowa for a few days...... does anyone know if there's ANY climbing in Iwoa? CHEERS!!!!

You poor bastard!! I grew up in Iowa and this is quite possibly the worst time of year to be there!
To answer your question - Yes there is climbing in Iowa. Nothing over 100ft. It's all Limestone/Dolomite, and mostly* sport'o. Check the database it's all there.
josh


Partner euroford


Dec 7, 2003, 3:48 PM
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In reply to:
I dunno, Mark Synnott has been using 2 normal daisys and 2 alpine aiders on just about everything he does. If one of the best Big Wall climbers in the world doesn't need adjustable aiders and daisys, neither do I.

I'll be saving my money for more cams/ nuts.

actually, its the opposite. unlike mr. "one of the best big wall climbers" we are just a bunch of gumbies and every advantage helps!

if i was a super guru wall climber i'd get up zodiac in a day with one aider and some french free. but i'm not, so two adjustable daisy's, an adjustable fifi and four wall ladders it is!!

of course, to each thier own and whatever works for you is great, but IMO the "if they don't need it i don't" probobly doesn't apply between wall guru's and weekend gumbies.

IMO: tims short list of must have gear to get into aid.

1 x Yates Harness (big wall or shield)
2 x Yates Adjustable Daiseys (two diffrent colors)
4 x Yates Big Wall Ladders (two diffrent colors, two per daisy)
2 x Yates Gecko keynose-twistlock biners to attach aiders to daisey's and clip to pieces
1 x Petzl left handed (yellow) ascension for upper ascender jugging/cleaning
1 x Petzl GriGri for partner belay, solo belay (always back up!) and cleaning/following
1 x Petzl Croll for jugging fixed lines.
1 x Petzl Torse chest harness for use with Croll.
1 x Kong adjustable Fifi

and of course, all the other more obvious fun stuff.


sfclimber


Dec 7, 2003, 6:24 PM
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In reply to:

IMO: tims short list of must have gear to get into aid.

1 x Yates Harness (big wall or shield)
2 x Yates Adjustable Daiseys (two diffrent colors)
4 x Yates Big Wall Ladders (two diffrent colors, two per daisy)
2 x Yates Gecko keynose-twistlock biners to attach aiders to daisey's and clip to pieces
1 x Petzl left handed (yellow) ascension for upper ascender jugging/cleaning
1 x Petzl GriGri for partner belay, solo belay (always back up!) and cleaning/following
1 x Petzl Croll for jugging fixed lines.
1 x Petzl Torse chest harness for use with Croll.
1 x Kong adjustable Fifi

Ditto on the Shield, adjustable daisys (one yellow one blue to match the ascenders) and gri-gri.

I went with Yates speed ladders to be a little more managable (they're thinner, lighter than the big wall ladders, but less comfy).

Adjustable aiders look like too much fuss. They are definately more handy for ascending, but if your aid ladders have elastic straps to keep your feet in the steps (the Yates ones do) then it's a non issue. Also went with both Petzl left hand (yellow) and right hand (blue) ascenders. I found that they were the easist to manipulate.


Partner tim


Dec 7, 2003, 8:12 PM
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IF anyone wants to buy a pair of Wall Ladders (only a couple of Grade IV/V walls on them) I will be selling mine on eBay. Once I tried a pair of russians I found it so much easier to high step that I did not want to go back to regular aid ladders. But, I know some people like the ladders.

(me, I am one of the folks who says Russians4lyfe ;-) )

One thing that is a bummer about adjustable daisies is that they get smoked after a while and won't grab anymore. I'm thinking about buying one of the newer Petzl kinds (the 'Quickfix Lanyard') with the two buckles. It costs the same as the Yates. On the other hand I usually like Yates stuff better than other mfgrs' versions of the same things so I will probably hate it. Fish sells adjustable daisies that come with a free spare piece. That sounds like a good deal, too. I would not use a regular daisy, I have tried one and prefer either a sling girth hitched through my legloops/swami (on free climbs) or a pair of adjustables (for walls). Don't use a fifi, it will slow you down. This is coming from someone who is already somewhat slow... but I'm less slow since I got rid of the fifi.

Listen to guys like Ammon obviously, aid is more fun if you can go fast. For me that means freeing everything I can get my hands on, up to 5.9ish.

Get a pair of cam hooks in at least the micro and narrow sizes. Those too will make you go faster, which is more fun than going slowly. You might want to get a pair of Talons as well, and try practicing somewhere like Nelson Rocks where you can jump on a 5.12 chossy sport route with bolts, and 'sport hook' your way to the anchors. Sparks aplenty :-)

One thing that came up is the choice of ascenders. I bought mine from a guy who got in a motorcycle accident. (He stuck with racing cycles, but gave up climbing) I have a pair of Ascension old-style ascenders and I discovered you can set up a pretty effective Frog system with a couple of maillons, a double-length sling as a chest harness (x'ed over in the back), and the lower maillon directly around your swami webbing. Then when you hang the aiders (both) off of your upper ascender, and straighten your legs, the tightly-held lower ascender (maillons holding it to your waist and improvised chest harness) just moves up the rope, and you do most of the work on a long free-hanging jug with your legs.

This was all revealed to me when I did a 200' free jug, discovered that the rack (which I thought we'd haul up) had hooked itself on a tree root, and got to rap down and do the jug again. Then I led most of the pitches that day. I think my arms would have been smoked if I'd have used the usual slide-the-jugs-up method. Give the frog method a chance, it is more casual IMHO.

You can't avoid jugging on a dynamic line. My partner and I climbed Glass Menagerie on a 9.4mm line that I took to Cayman Brac the following weekend and sport climbed on. I'm more of an idiot than most people, but on the other hand, I'm still not dead...


1269topper


Dec 9, 2003, 8:01 PM
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Thanks guys for the great advice that was what I was looking for. Thanks again


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