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bustinmins


Dec 6, 2003, 7:51 PM
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Joshua Tree Falcon Guide
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Is anyone else really bent out of shape that the author left out the FA information on every single climb? To me, that is the ultimate slap in the face to the person who made it. I personally don't care if it would take up an additional 80 pages(his figure) - that information is valuable to me. I would have gladly paid the extra 5.00 bucks for those pages to have been included.

For one thing, I enjoy looking at the Eldorado Guide and seeing Kor, Ament, Briggs and Gill etc. It gives you an idea of what you can expect by knowing the person that put the route up.

As a person who eventually wants to lay down his own route one day - I find it patently offensive that he'd leave that information out. Anyone else feel the same? Comments?

Just my .02,

JD


addiroids


Dec 6, 2003, 8:14 PM
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I very much agree and think that is a rediculous reason to not include the FA information. But that was his choice. I loved looking at my friend's 1986 book (the purple one) and just drooling over the names in that book. Almost better than reading a real book on the history of climbing.

The new guides will have a lot more history and be in two volumes, but I don't agree it should have ever been taken out. That is the reason I climb some routes I have done, is because of who did the FA. It just means something to climb something that the guys and gals I really respect have done.

TRADitionally yours,

Cali Dirtbag


bustinmins


Dec 7, 2003, 7:54 AM
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In reply to:
I very much agree and think that is a rediculous reason to not include the FA information. But that was his choice. I loved looking at my friend's 1986 book (the purple one) and just drooling over the names in that book. Almost better than reading a real book on the history of climbing.

The new guides will have a lot more history and be in two volumes, but I don't agree it should have ever been taken out. That is the reason I climb some routes I have done, is because of who did the FA. It just means something to climb something that the guys and gals I really respect have done.

TRADitionally yours,

Cali Dirtbag

When will the new guides be published - I'm seriously considering sending this one back to Falcon for a refund.....!

JD


bustinmins


Dec 7, 2003, 7:59 AM
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Additionally, I wish he had also put in more route topo's. I know that the guide must have been a chore because of the location and the sheer number of routes.

It seems like he left most of the moderate stuff to the imagination. For example, he describes a 10a route and those around it. Then says 20 feet to the left climb a dihedral or something crazy like that. No picture or at the very least a dashed line like the rest of the route.

The guide must have been a bear to handle but I think if something is worth doing it is worth doing better than this one.

Falcon - are you listening?


cire


Dec 7, 2003, 9:38 AM
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I would have to say until you write a guide book don,t dog the dude who does. Think of what climbing in Jtree would be like with no guide. There are 4000+ routes knowing who put them up is a life long task in itself. There is nothing stoping you from creating a guide with the 1st accents yourself. As you can see, you already have a few buyers. Try sitting there and thinking about making a Jtree guide book and ask yourself. Where will I start?


addiroids


Dec 7, 2003, 10:25 AM
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In reply to:
It seems like he left most of the moderate stuff to the imagination. For example, he describes a 10a route and those around it. Then says 20 feet to the left climb a dihedral or something crazy like that. No picture or at the very least a dashed line like the rest of the route.

Uhh, that's kind of nice in my opinion. Geez, how hard is it to see a dihedral that looks 5.7 and climb it. That is a good way to reduce the amount of writing and time to put it together. And it allows us to get something a little more onsight (with less description). That's good in that it preserves a little adventure rather than having tape on all the holds.

TRADitionally yours,

Cali Dirtbag


micronut


Dec 7, 2003, 11:14 AM
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I agree, that's why I use Bartlett's books; more beta, more routes, more stars on easier routes, I don't have to carry around 20 lbs. of guidebook everywhere I go.


shaggyj


Dec 7, 2003, 12:57 PM
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Falcon Guides in general suck all around.....


sbclimber


Dec 7, 2003, 3:23 PM
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people should stop worrying about FA's. god who cares?

everyone is running around like a chicken with its head cut off trying to get FA's...doing lame squeeze jobs, climb half of one route and half of another and now it is your own?

FA's are great, but is it really that big a deal?


bustinmins


Dec 8, 2003, 10:31 AM
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In reply to:
In reply to:
It seems like he left most of the moderate stuff to the imagination. For example, he describes a 10a route and those around it. Then says 20 feet to the left climb a dihedral or something crazy like that. No picture or at the very least a dashed line like the rest of the route.

Uhh, that's kind of nice in my opinion. Geez, how hard is it to see a dihedral that looks 5.7 and climb it. That is a good way to reduce the amount of writing and time to put it together. And it allows us to get something a little more onsight (with less description). That's good in that it preserves a little adventure rather than having tape on all the holds.

TRADitionally yours,

Cali Dirtbag

I can see your point but as a new outdoor climber - it is nice to know the trouble you're getting into before you get to a spot and run out on a 10 when you're a 7 guy...if you know what I mean, but right now, I'm not up to "onsighting".....yet. :)

JD


gretchino


Dec 8, 2003, 11:11 AM
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In reply to:
people should stop worrying about FA's. god who cares?

everyone is running around like a chicken with its head cut off trying to get FA's...doing lame squeeze jobs, climb half of one route and half of another and now it is your own?

FA's are great, but is it really that big a deal?

I absolutely agree with this post...honestly, who cares? Ok, some of you care if you put up this post. However, when I buy a guide, I'm not interested in who put up the route. I am merely interested in its ratings, where it is, and any other pro beta the writer can give. :roll:


apolobamba


Dec 8, 2003, 11:22 AM
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Not interested in who put up the route ......... maybe you should be.

Some routes are harder than others. By knowing who put up the route and when, you may get a better feeling for what you are up against.


bustinmins


Dec 8, 2003, 11:30 AM
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In reply to:
Not interested in who put up the route ......... maybe you should be.

Some routes are harder than others. By knowing who put up the route and when, you may get a better feeling for what you are up against.

I couldn't agree more. Personally - Kor laid down some pretty serious stuff in Eldorado Canyon. In that guide, you can see each of his routes. Personally - if you want to climb every Kor route in the canyon you know where to find them because his name is listed on FA for the route.

Additionally - I like knowing the history of the climbs if read about them in a climbing magazine, book or online. If I climb something that I don't enjoy and I find that it is frequently a certain person doing the FA then I know that I may NOT enjoy the climb and thus may choose to climb another persons route.

JD


fredbob


Dec 8, 2003, 11:40 AM
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In reply to:
Additionally, I wish he had also put in more route topo's. I know that the guide must have been a chore because of the location and the sheer number of routes.

In case you haven't heard, I have just finished up the first volume of a new comprehensive guide to the Park. The routes will be divided between 2 volumes in order to include lots of new info as well as a total over about 6,100 routes.

Each crag has specific approach/descent info; Each crag/face will have orientation/beta when (if) it gets sun/shade; Each route has a verbal description (in addition to about twice as many crag photos); topos are included for larger faces, crags; Each route has recommended gear; Each route has FA information; plus a lot more. Volume 1 has a detailed climbing history section from 1936 to 1978. All new maps have been generated showing new roads as well as topographic features.

All this adds considerably to the size, so each volume will be about as large as the last book.

Unfortunately, Chockstone Press (the publisher of the last guide-Flacon just reprinted it) stripped out the FA info from the last guide. I have given this info to Al Bartlett over the years for use in his fine series of guides. All this info (plus corrections) is now being put back in.

In reply to:
It seems like he left most of the moderate stuff to the imagination. For example, he describes a 10a route and those around it. Then says 20 feet to the left climb a dihedral or something crazy like that. No picture or at the very least a dashed line like the rest of the route.

Most routes were described equally good (or bad). I realize that climbers these days want to be held by the hand, but if a reference is given in relationship to a climb you can see pictured and it is described (a dihedral), what more do you really need?

In reply to:
The guide must have been a bear to handle but I think if something is worth doing it is worth doing better than this one.

Falcon - are you listening?

They aren't, but I have. Many of your critiques (and those made by others) are very valid. That is why the new guides will be very different. Route explosion is not as much of problem with this guide and it was possible to get a lot more feedback from others about mistakes, ratings, quality, etc. It was also possible with 2 volumes to include details and other info not possible before.

If you want to get good beta on Josh climbing try http://climbingjtree.com which is a great site.

When the new guide(s) come out, I would be happy to hear any comments, critiques, etc.

Randy Vogel


troutboy


Dec 8, 2003, 12:10 PM
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In reply to:
In reply to:
people should stop worrying about FA's. god who cares?

everyone is running around like a chicken with its head cut off trying to get FA's...doing lame squeeze jobs, climb half of one route and half of another and now it is your own?

FA's are great, but is it really that big a deal?

I absolutely agree with this post...honestly, who cares? Ok, some of you care if you put up this post. However, when I buy a guide, I'm not interested in who put up the route. I am merely interested in its ratings, where it is, and any other pro beta the writer can give. :roll:

I can't help notice those responding with "Who cares ?" are relatively new to climbing. Please realize I mean no offense to you; we were all new once; however, I believe some perspective would change your view. Get back with me in 25 years and see if you still feel this way. Perhaps, since you were not climbing before the masses invaded and it became chic (I'm not saying you fit this category, mind you), even 25 years will not change your perspective. Perhaps it will. And I'm not sure I can explain the perspective in a few words over the internet. If we ever meet in person, maybe we can have a nice discussion. But those of us who were around pre-1975, realize the only place climbing history was recorded was in those guide books. Were it not for guide books, that info could have been lost. And it is often an important part of climbing history. Imagine not knowing who did the FA of the Nose, the Eiger, Everest. Granted, the significance of some climbs is greater than others. But who can tell what will be significant ? I can pretty much guarantee, with few exceptions, very few pre-1970s climbers thought what they were doing was significant. They were just climbing. Little info would have recorded if not for guide book authors.

As for the practical side, if you climb in an area often, you get to know the nature of the FA and can better decide about the climb. For example, Herb Laeger and Layton Kor were pretty tall. I know if I'm doing one of their routes I may have protection issues related to reaching a bolt or a critical placement. If on a Will Crowther route at the Gunks and the next move seems hard, I try looking around the corner.

Finally, I recently had the pleasure of climbing with some legends. I knew some of their FAs by reputation. However, my respect for those guys was more based on having followed some of their routes that are less well known. The only way I would have known they did the FA of those routes was from the guidebook.

I believe Randy is including the FA info in his new Josh Guide and I say good for him.

TS


bustinmins


Dec 8, 2003, 4:18 PM
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In reply to:
In reply to:
Additionally, I wish he had also put in more route topo's. I know that the guide must have been a chore because of the location and the sheer number of routes.

In case you haven't heard, I have just finished up the first volume of a new comprehensive guide to the Park. The routes will be divided between 2 volumes in order to include lots of new info as well as a total over about 6,100 routes.

Each crag has specific approach/descent info; Each crag/face will have orientation/beta when (if) it gets sun/shade; Each route has a verbal description (in addition to about twice as many crag photos); topos are included for larger faces, crags; Each route has recommended gear; Each route has FA information; plus a lot more. Volume 1 has a detailed climbing history section from 1936 to 1978. All new maps have been generated showing new roads as well as topographic features.

All this adds considerably to the size, so each volume will be about as large as the last book.

Unfortunately, Chockstone Press (the publisher of the last guide-Flacon just reprinted it) stripped out the FA info from the last guide. I have given this info to Al Bartlett over the years for use in his fine series of guides. All this info (plus corrections) is now being put back in.

In reply to:
It seems like he left most of the moderate stuff to the imagination. For example, he describes a 10a route and those around it. Then says 20 feet to the left climb a dihedral or something crazy like that. No picture or at the very least a dashed line like the rest of the route.

Most routes were described equally good (or bad). I realize that climbers these days want to be held by the hand, but if a reference is given in relationship to a climb you can see pictured and it is described (a dihedral), what more do you really need?

In reply to:
The guide must have been a bear to handle but I think if something is worth doing it is worth doing better than this one.

Falcon - are you listening?

They aren't, but I have. Many of your critiques (and those made by others) are very valid. That is why the new guides will be very different. Route explosion is not as much of problem with this guide and it was possible to get a lot more feedback from others about mistakes, ratings, quality, etc. It was also possible with 2 volumes to include details and other info not possible before.

If you want to get good beta on Josh climbing try http://climbingjtree.com which is a great site.

When the new guide(s) come out, I would be happy to hear any comments, critiques, etc.

Randy Vogel

I look forward to it. I plan to return the Falcon guide I have and wait for this next issue to be distributed.

Thanks for all of the good gouge! I appreciate it. I may have a 20 hour layover in Ontario, CA. Planning to jump over the hill and go climb at J-Tree. :) Hope I can bring/find a partner for low to moderate trad.

Thanks again,

JD


mreardon


Dec 9, 2003, 9:42 AM
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In reply to:
people should stop worrying about FA's. god who cares?

FA's are great, but is it really that big a deal?

It's not a a big deal to all, but there are plenty of people like myself that want to know what we're in for before heading up some climb. If the FA has a reputation for runouts, then you know what to expect, if the person is a sandbagger, or puts up quality climbs. Knowing the FA allows you know what you are in for.


climblouisiana


Dec 10, 2003, 7:14 AM
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The history of any climbing area is very important. A three page blurb in the beginning of a guide book is often insufficient to describe the area's history in detail.
I personally would like to see the first ascent information for routes as well as comments on the style of the routes etc. People that don't lead routes often don't care about the skills it took for the first ascentionist to accomplish the task of putting up a route.
For instance, everyone that climbs Supercrack in Indian Creek should know that Earl Wiggins did the FA without camming units and that Ed Webster (seconding) was pretty sure that none of the pieces would have held a fall.

Addiroids, Mreardon, and Troutboy... thanks for your comments.


climbsomething


Dec 10, 2003, 7:36 AM
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Both sides of this argument are valid. Certain FAists have reputations for runouts, sandbagging, etc., and history is just plain cool. I do not reject this info at all. Methinks the original post was a little over-the-top, however:

In reply to:
Is anyone else really bent out of shape that the author left out the FA information on every single climb? To me, that is the ultimate slap in the face to the person who made it.
I'd agree that it could hurt, but I can think of worse. Chipping or otherwise physically scarring the route, including adding unnecessary convenience bolts OR chopping bolts that would keep people from killing themselves is far and away more "patently offensive" than leaving a name out of a book for whatever reason. Hell, even unfounded slander/libel on my route's quality or my tactics (like, on an Internet discussion forum even!) could also piss me off. I'm not saying I wouldn't be upset if my name were excluded from a guidebook- my mommy always told me it looks beautiful in print- but it seems to me that there are worse ways to come down on an FAist.

Of course, I'm just a gumby with no FAs or hardwoman history, but that's just the way I sees it.


hasbeen


Dec 10, 2003, 10:08 AM
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As a fairly prolific first ascentionist I, personally, don't much care whether or not my name is included. I don't much care about my personal place in history. I do, however, very much care about history. In fact, recently I proofed a guide that had given other's credit for some of my routes and, becaues they were friends of mine mainly, I didn't bother changing it. If I really felt that any of these routes had historical significance I would have because I think the reading about FA info is very important. So I'm being a bit of a hypocrite. I should have changed the info because that info is important to me as a consumer. And while I'd never vote to make this law, I personally don't see how anyone can call themselves a climber if they don't hold any interest in the history of the sport. This is something I don't, and never will, understand. For those who climb without a thought about those that went before them, what is going through your heads? That's like living in a country where you don't know the history and have no interest... wait, hmmm, okay, never mind.

But I love reading guidebooks, even to areas I've never been and may never go. I enjoy learning about the history of climbing. Leaving this out of a guidebook is inexcusable--unless it's for an abridged version and noted, because then the reader would at least have a choice. To eliminate this from guidebooks as a going concern should be a punishable offense.

I was in England recently and found one of my guidebooks in a very small shop. I asked the guy working if they ever sold, since it was unlikely at anyone from Heathersage or Ambleside (don't remember) was actually going to climb at some backwater area halfway around the world. He said people liked reading guidebooks just to learn about other areas and history.

Some of the better climing books I've ever read are GUIDEBOOKS. Weird, perhaps, but I've read a LOT of climbing books. High Over Boulder, Rocky Heights, On Peak Rock... the list goes on and on. Guidebooks are our sports history books. Leaving out the first ascensionists is like chronicling WWII without naming Goring, Patton and Mac Carther. It's a major disservice to the public, not to mention disrespectful to the individuals that are out there doing it. Let's face it, you may lambaste those in the public eye all you want, but they are the ones in the arena, making our sport what it is, for good or bad. Those that sit back, yap, and do nothing themselves will always just be the ones that "could have done better," and nothing more.

I recommend boycotting the Falcon guide, and any other guide that disrespects our sport in this way. In fact, I'd recommend boycotting their entire line of books. And I wrote one, so this is not a self-serving statement. I'd rather never sell another book than allow this trend to become commonplace.


esoteric1


Dec 29, 2003, 7:50 AM
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Hey Randy,
Do ya have any idea on a time frame on when this new one will hit the shelves? are you gona put one out while your still putting the other one together? Thanks for your efferts! Your guides have helped me have some of the times of my life!
THanks again...
mark


fredbob


Dec 29, 2003, 9:57 AM
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Hey Randy,
Do ya have any idea on a time frame on when this new one will hit the shelves?
Sometime in the early Spring would be my best guess. This project has become so huge, it has taken a lot longer than anticipated. Right now, the only thing I am finalizing (still sending off to publisher) is the photos and topos for Vol 1.

In reply to:
are you gona put one out while your still putting the other one together?

Vol 1 will be out first, Vol 2 will follow this Fall as I am still working on it. Vol 1 has 2,970 routes; Vol 2 will have over 3,000.

Best,

Randy


bishopclimber


Dec 29, 2003, 10:21 AM
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I agree with the others. it's nice to know who did the FA so at least you know what kind of route you are getting on. it's also nice to relive a little bit of history.
oh and Gretchino, I suggest you lead the Bachar-Yarian in the Meadows.
don't worry about who did the FA. he is a nice guy.


Partner cracklover


Dec 29, 2003, 10:28 AM
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I don't like the lack of FA info either. Good to know the new guide is fixing that.

In reply to:
Right now, the only thing I am finalizing (still sending off to publisher) is the photos and topos for Vol 1.

Hope you've fixed the topo for Lost Horse. Look carefully and you'll see that the route lines on the photo are offset by about a centimeter (about 50 feet on the rock). Being misled (not on purpose, of course) is worse than not having a photo at all.

GO


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