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cabdog
Dec 8, 2003, 5:53 PM
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I am looking for advice on climbing El Capitan, as I've always wanted to do it. More specifically, I'm looking to Hire a guide to take me up the big stone. I climb in Denver, and climb 5.11 trad, and 5.12+ sport, but don't know anything about aid.
Can anyone one advise on a good guide/school to contact? Any ideas on the costs associated with it, as I am looking to start budgeting/saving now.
Thanks in advance!
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maculated
Dec 8, 2003, 5:59 PM
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I am pretty sure Ammon can be hired (username elcapbuzz) and of course, there is Hans Florine (speedclimb.com).
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epic_ed
Dec 8, 2003, 6:59 PM
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No one is officially allowed to guide a climb in Yosemite except for those approved by the NPS (Yosemite Mountain guides, and a few others I think). However, there are experienced climbers who do so on the side and on the down-low. I's say contacting Karl and Ammon is a great way to get some more information about who might do this kind of guiding. :wink:
Ed
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andypro
Dec 8, 2003, 7:00 PM
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Theres always pete. :wink: Alot of people would proabbly try to shy you away form that though....
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asandh
Dec 8, 2003, 8:29 PM
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:D
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jkarns
Dec 8, 2003, 8:42 PM
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asandh--
What you speak is utter and total bullshit!! Have you ever climbed with a guide before? Certainly, the situation you describe can happen, but my experience is that it usually does not.
It sounds that cabdog is a fairly experienced climber, he just hasn't climbed a big wall. I'd be very surprised if he was looking for someone to simply drag him up! Rather, my guess would be that he's willing to fork over a little extra cash so that he has a mentor who most definately knows his (or her!) stuff. And what the difference between that and doing it with a buddy who has a little more experience than you? In the former scenario, you may not have as much cash at the end of the day, but you'll probably have a hell of a lot more skills in your bag of tricks!
I say hire the guide!!
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sierramike
Dec 8, 2003, 8:44 PM
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If you hire a guide that means that you haven't climbed the "Big Stone"??? Gotta say that sounds like some serious elitist drivel to me. People hire guides for all sorts of reasons---gain experience, fear, time constraints, etc. To harsh someone for wanting to learn from someone more experienced is silly. That said, guides aren't in it for the money. Very few earn a complete living guiding (myself included). Guiding climbing isn't about climbing either. It's about the client. Period. I won't go into what it takes to be a good and competent guide, suffice to say that if someone wants to hire a guide for any endeavor I say good for them. They're showing understanding (of their limitations), willingness, and common sense. For some, it is about the end. That's ok, after all, climbing is about each of us expressing our individualism as we see fit. We each do it for our own reasons.
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buzzardboy
Dec 8, 2003, 8:47 PM
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asadnh wrote:
"Why don't you take the time and expend the energy to learn the skills required to do El Cap. You'll feel a lot better about yourself. It's the journey, not the end. "
I'm gonna have to agree here. It sounds as though you have decent trad experience. Why not start learning some aid stuff now and go for the climb on your own terms! I think the rewards of tackling your first wall as an independent adventure would be priceless.
That being said: Ammon, Karl, et al. are knowledgable
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troutboy
Dec 8, 2003, 8:48 PM
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In reply to: I don't mean to dis climbing guides, I'm sure most of them do a great job and are just trying to make a few bucks. But frankly I have a lot more respect for someone who climbs on his own terms at the limit of his own skills than someone who tries to take a short cut by purchasing experience. Why don't you take the time and expend the energy to learn the skills required to do El Cap. You'll feel a lot better about yourself. It's the journey, not the end. If you do decide to pay a guide to drag you up El Cap don't ever brag that you climbed the big stone, because you haven't. You were merely baggage and a means to a paycheck.
One effect of going with (at least one) of the aforementioned folks is that you will NOT neccessarily be hauled up El Cap, especially if your ability is as advertised. I suggest asandh visit a couple web sites and talk to some folks before making such statements. Now, if you were to go with the "official" service, then, yes as asandh said, you would be "dragged" up El Cap.
My view is more of a paid partner than a "guide".
T
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iamthewallress
Dec 8, 2003, 8:50 PM
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In reply to: It sounds that cabdog is a fairly experienced climber, he just hasn't climbed a big wall. I'd be very surprised if he was looking for someone to simply drag him up!!!
I don't know what the "bandit" guide's policies are, but I would be really stunned if a YMS guide would allow a client to lead on El Cap. Anyone know if this happens?
Also, a lot of times I read poo-poos to the tune of "he only jugged it..." Having jugged most of my first wall and having since been the designated jugger for other "speed" ascents, I promise you that jugging El Cap will kick your butt and you'll probably learn enough about wall logistics in the #2 slot to be able to make a solid go of it by yourself (w/ a similarly experienced partner) your next time out. There are more and less efficient ways to clean, and you won't figure them all out over the course of 15-30 pitches, but it will be a start.
Personally, I wouldn't pay $2K for the experiences that I've had, but having gotten them for "free", I'll also say that they were very valuable.
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buzzardboy
Dec 8, 2003, 8:53 PM
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Paying for instruction, education, experience=cool...
Paying only to get from the meadow to the summit=not cool...
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asandh
Dec 8, 2003, 8:58 PM
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:D
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murf
Dec 8, 2003, 8:59 PM
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In reply to: I am looking for advice on climbing El Capitan, as I've always wanted to do it. More specifically, I'm looking to Hire a guide to take me up the big stone. I climb in Denver, and climb 5.11 trad, and 5.12+ sport, but don't know anything about aid. Can anyone one advise on a good guide/school to contact? Any ideas on the costs associated with it, as I am looking to start budgeting/saving now. Thanks in advance!
A minimum amount of work reveals:
El Capitan is $3198.
for YMS.
http://www.yosemitepark.com/...ionID=117&PageID=482
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troutboy
Dec 8, 2003, 9:11 PM
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In reply to: And if you have a nursemaid there to take care of your fears you've missed a big part of the experience.
Agreed, though I'm not sure I'd apply the term "nursemaid" in all cases. But, better than being "dragged" up.
Scenario: You have a steady job, 3 kids, 2 weeks vacation a year, you're 45-50 years old, you've been climbing 10 years, and you want to do El Cap. Options ???
When you do it, be happy, but be honest, with yourself and others. Yes, you had a guide. It's not the same.
T
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iamthewallress
Dec 8, 2003, 9:25 PM
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In reply to: El Capitan is $3198.
Carumba!
Add me to the list of people willing to guide you.
I'm pretty much a gumby but for that kind of cash I'll teach you everything I know and a few things that I don't.
Melissa (joking, btw)
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dsafanda
Dec 9, 2003, 6:40 PM
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In reply to: you had a guide. It's not the same.
I've never hired a climbing guide but I'm not sure it's fair to dismiss it outright as a second class way of climbing ElCap. A lot of people manage to climb ElCap for the firs time by going with a much more experienced partner. Perhaps they lead a few pitches but for the most part they jug and clean. More importantly, if things ever got scary or tough they know they can depend on their partner to take the sharp end. That's a huge psychological advantage. Granted they didn't pay their partner but aside from that I'm not convinced there is a huge difference between this sort of ascent and a guided climb.
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holdplease2
Dec 9, 2003, 7:16 PM
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I barely see a difference between doing your first wall with someone who has enough experience that they could almost be a guide and you know very little if anything vs hiring a guide.
Other than the fact that maybe you are blessed enough to live in an area where you can meet/make friends with totally competent bigwall climbers and pursuade them to take you with charm/friendship OR you pursuade them to take you with $. Either way, the resulting experience is probably about the same...if you cant lead due to guide service policy, that takes it down a notch, though.
I have not climbed what I consider to be a real "bigwall", but I must say that I have a hard time with people posting/taking credit for "bigwall" ascents but not mentioning that they did not do any leading/routefinding/hauling That said, it isn't that it isn't a valid experience, but it is different.
-Kate.
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floridaputz
Dec 9, 2003, 7:24 PM
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I've never hired a Guide. But I am 45 now and money is not the big deal it was when I was young and struggling. I will not rule out the possibility of doing something like that someday. At present I adhere to the view if I don't approach it on my own, planning, logistics, leading, it would not be much fun to me. But I do think at some point I might enjoy just paying a Guide. It's a valid profession. I know people who do it all the time. Most of them are good climbers that don't lead and have money. But I hate rich professionals who hire guides to peak bag then try to pass themselves off as climbers. This is mostly done in mountianeering.
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karlbaba
Dec 10, 2003, 12:01 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: And if you have a nursemaid there to take care of your fears you've missed a big part of the experience. Agreed, though I'm not sure I'd apply the term "nursemaid" in all cases. But, better than being "dragged" up. Scenario: You have a steady job, 3 kids, 2 weeks vacation a year, you're 45-50 years old, you've been climbing 10 years, and you want to do El Cap. Options ??? When you do it, be happy, but be honest, with yourself and others. Yes, you had a guide. It's not the same. T
I'm very appreciative that some very cool folks have supported my outdoor lifestyle. I count them as friends.
As stated above, there a lot of personal circumstances that make folks seek out alternative wall partners. Responsibility to family to stay alive. Limited time. Desire to learn the ropes. To each their own.
One thing I've found from going with folks on their first wall experiences. Lack of adventure and challenge is never, never the issue. I'm sure folks that go with YMS are plenty excited. For those who want to lead a bit or more than a bit of the climb, you need to find somebody who so poor that sueing them isn't practical.
Fortunately, or unfortunately, there will always be some climbers who qualify.
Peace
karl
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iamthewallress
Dec 10, 2003, 12:23 AM
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In reply to: For those who want to lead a bit or more than a bit of the climb, you need to find somebody who so poor that sueing them isn't practical.
LOL. So, do the good friends that you make sharing first experiences get to lead or not. :wink: Just joking, don't answer.
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timstich
Dec 10, 2003, 1:00 AM
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All I know is that if I were ever to hire a Yosemite guide, it would be Karl Baba. But I would do stuff other than El Cap.
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climbingnurse
Dec 10, 2003, 1:03 AM
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I used to have plenty of money and limited time. Then I hired guides on 2 occasions. First, to climb Mt. Rainier, then to climb the Grand Teton. After the Grand, I quickly quit working in the profession that was making me all that money. So, hiring a guide can be more expensive than you think... It completely ruined my career, but probably saved my life.
Now I have plenty of time to learn the skills I want to and don't need the money to hire a guide. As long as I can put gas in the Civic, I'm good.
Hiring a guide is a good way to get your feet wet, but it's definitely not the same as doing it all yourself. Like others have said, there's a HUGE psychological difference.
Good luck and have fun! (No matter what you do.)
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flamer
Dec 10, 2003, 2:50 AM
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In reply to: Most of them are good climbers that don't lead and have money.
:lol: :lol: :lol: ...
Did you really say that?
I have several buddies who are very good guides, most of them guide for CMS at Rocky Mtn. national park. At the end of the day when we're all sitting around drinking beer telling stories they often talk about their client for the day.
I've heard alot of funny stories, a couple of sad.
But my Favorite was the one about the guy who showed up and out climbed the guide. And this Guide was no punter either.
The guy was on Vacation couldn't find a partner so he called CMS and said give me your strongest guide, and told them what he wanted to climb and his experience...then proceeded to drag the guide up some serious;y hairball $hit. The guide was stoked, he got to climb some really hard/good stuff and got a tip at the end. The client was stoked to have a solid safe partner...
josh
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ep
Dec 10, 2003, 2:53 AM
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In reply to: Hiring a guide is a good way to get your feet wet, but it's definitely not the same as doing it all yourself.
Okay, so you climb the wall with your equally skilled partner, do your share of the leading and hauling --- BUT, he leads the scary chimney of death with no pro. Did you really do the route? (I think not)
So next time you go solo. All the work, all the leading, all the hauling, everything --- BUT, you got tons of beta from all your friends, pages of information from the internet, you carry a mammoth rack with all the latest techno-toys, and enough food, water and alcohol so that you spend three weeks on your climb. Do you get full credit? (I think not)
It's a sliding scale. Do the first ascent onsite in a straight push through darkness and rain with minimal food water and gear versus jugging in the sunshine behind a guide. Both ways lead to the top. You get to choose the path that suits your style.
In reply to: Good luck and have fun! (No matter what you do.)
I couldn't agree more.
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