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david.yount
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Dec 11, 2003, 4:00 PM
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While I developed this method in 1996, and I call it the Piggy Back GriGri, I'm sure others may have been using it before I did. Like others, I found that lowering a climber with the GriGri required a non-trivial amount of hand strength in my brake hand. Originally GriGri instructed to use the self-retracting handle fully open (minimal friction generated by the internal cam), or fully closed (maximum camming friction which completely stops the rope's movement). I remember reading that you were not to operate the cam's lever as a friction modulator. But I read the instructions with my 2nd GriGri (dropped 1st one at Pitch 5 of Prince of Darkness 5.10C Red Rocks, NV) and it now advised that I could modulate the cam's friction by adjusting the lever. But adjusting that lever smoothly during a 100' lower with a climber greater than 160lbs.... was too fussy. Much too touchy. Of course, I found that any type of animal skin gloves (cow, deer, elk, loved my retired kangaroo motorcycle gloves best, what style!) provided just about all the extra friction I needed in my brake hand even with the lever fully open. But I didn't want to have to remember to pack my gloves every time I wanted to use my GriGri. Besides, how cool is that? Belaying my partner at some super-popular sport crag (The Gallery at Red Rocks, NV comes to mind, or maybe most any crag at Smith Rocks, OR) with my big heavy shiny GriGri and I'm wearing leather gloves!!!?? At a sport park!!!!!! OK, maybe. Maybe if we drove up on sport bikes...... So, on with my invention of the Piggy Back GriGri. I realized I didn't need much additional friction to feel comfortable with using the GriGri in fully opened mode; I only needed a little help for my hand. The GriGri is attached to my harness with a "belay biner" which of course is a locker. The face of the GriGri with the self-retracting handle is away from me or to the left. I attached a Piggy Back biner to the belay biner. The Piggy Back biner is next to the face of the GriGri without the lever, it's next to the face where the brake rope rolls over a rounded edge. The brake rope is then clipped through the Piggy Back biner. If you prefer you may use a locking biner for the Piggy Back; though I've found most lockers don't nest as closely to the GriGri body as non-lockers and so lockers reduce the maximum amount of friction available from the Piggy Back system. I forget what I've settled on, but different biner designs nest differently with the GriGri. The closer the biner nests with the GriGri the greater the maximum amount of friction available in the Piggy Back system. I think I'm using a Bonatti non-locker straight-gate made from wicked thin aluminum bar stock from the 70's. With the brake rope through the Piggy Back biner you still have normal friction by directing the rope downward. Now as you raise the rope the Piggy Back biner begins to lightly pin the rope. The rope is pinned just as before it enters the GriGri between the rounded edge and the biner. As you raise the brake rope so it becomes parallel to the climber's rope you gain brilliant additional friction. Maximum friction would be obtained by moving the brake rope further in the arc another 90 degrees until it laid across the top surface of the GriGri, but this position is rarely needed. I've shared my invention with many dozens of (mostly sport) climbers and every woman that uses a GriGri to belay a man weighing over 180lbs has given me much praise. It saves the strength in your hands while lowering your partner so you can climb without already being fatigued. It saves the skin on your palms! You don't have to wear animal skins. And, it also works for single-line rappels with the GriGri. I named it the Piggy Back GriGri because sometimes while alpine rapping with a heavy pack on thin lines I would use a carabiner brake as a piggy back to my Black Diamond ATC. I considered the extra biner to be a piggy back friction device to the primary one, the GriGri. -- David.
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slobmonster
Dec 11, 2003, 4:34 PM
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I've been using another technique to solve this problem, and it doesn't require an extra biner. However, it does require that you OPEN the gate of the locker attaching the GriGri to your harness, so if you're uncomfortable w/ this, find some other technique. GriGri on belay loop, attached with a locker, gate facing to the RIGHT. After your climber has asked for a take, allow them to weight the system and your GriGri to lock. Unlock the gate of the biner, and snap the brake strand through the gate, so it's running over the smoothed lowering edge of your GriGri. Lock that puppy back up, and lower away. I've found that with this setup you don't even need to use the retractable lever, but rather can lower comfortably by just squeezing the GriGri with your left hand. To be redundant... This does require that the gate opens. I'm comfortable with this only in the situation I've described: body weight. Any locker worth its snuff is good to 7KN in open gate mode anyway. This work really well rappeling, too. If you've ever had to rap a single strand w/ a griGri you're probably familiar with the jerkiness inherent.
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bustloose
Dec 11, 2003, 5:35 PM
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OK. I'm going to say this very slowly and carefully. NEVER, UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCE, DO YOU OPEN THE GATE ON THE BINER ATTACHED TO YOUR BELAY DEVICE. I don't really care how strong it is supposed to be while open... the strengh of the biner doesn't do muvh freaking good if it is sailing out of your hands. The chances of something happening while you are messing around with an open gate may be small, but they exist. For christ's sake man, do you climb with people you like?? Then why try to kill them...? If I ever found someone doing that at a crag I would take away their Gri Gri and beat them with it. Do the world a favour and quit climbing, you don't belong here.
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rock_raptor
Dec 11, 2003, 6:00 PM
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never mind
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djnibs
Dec 11, 2003, 6:11 PM
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I have been using that method, not for belaying, but for rappelling using a grigri. I find it very jerky and awkward, but attaching the "piggy back biner" makes it smooth and softer on my hands.
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petsfed
Dec 11, 2003, 6:19 PM
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Can I assume that the rounded edge just isn't enough for you then? Having belayed my partner (~180 lbs) numerous times with my Gri-Gri, I've never found any problem with having enough friction, even on long lowers. Perhaps I just have better grip strength, or thicker calluses to deal with the heat.
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jt512
Dec 11, 2003, 6:25 PM
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In reply to: I've been using another technique to solve this problem, and it doesn't require an extra biner. However, it does require that you OPEN the gate of the locker attaching the GriGri to your harness... That is idiotic, and I would refuse to climb with anyone who would even contemplate doing something like that. I routinely belay and lower partners who weigh 60 lb more than me using a grigri. It is absolutely no problem to do so. Learn to use your belay device correctly, or find another sport. -Jay
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dsafanda
Dec 11, 2003, 6:33 PM
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I'm with petsfed and jt512. I've never had a single problem lowering partners or rappeling with just the Gri-Gri and the lever open all the way. Friction can be controled by simply changing the angle of the rope passing through device just as you would with a standard tube style belay device.
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junkie
Dec 11, 2003, 6:35 PM
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Slobmonster, you WERE the queen idiot for posting that, HOWEVER... Rock_Raptor, for posting this: gate open or closed has nothing to do with the biner's strength in tension ...you are now the new queen of the idiots. I hope you enjoy your throne. I find this forum depressing sometimes as I see people like you giving advice that is wrong, ill-concieved and just plain unsafe. YES there is a strength difference. YES it is unsafe to open your biner while someone else is depending you you for their saftey. YES you are even more wrong for giving this advice to others. Do us a favour: keep this advice to yourself, don't make other climbers more unsafe by giving bad advice. I'll tell you what: write PETZL, or DMM, or Black diamond. Ask THEM if what you are proposing is a good idea. See the responses. DO NOT UNLOCK AND OPEN your biner while someone else is on the other end of the line. You'll feel sick if someone else gets hurt by your idiocy. You chumps.
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slobmonster
Dec 11, 2003, 6:49 PM
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Oh, folks, now the personal derision starts. Read my caveats carefully. Don't use this, or any technique, if you aren't fully comfortable with it. I was espousing an alternate --and in my experience easy, efficient, ans *safe*-- to the Piggyback described above. And btw 'biners have gate-open strength for a reason. No, they should not under any circumstances be loaded dynamically with the gate open. That is a 'duh.' My technique requires that the GriGri be loaded and locked, thus tensioning the biner attaching it to your harness. This is not a dynamic load, but a static one, and with rope stretch and friction you're likely to be holding far less than what your partner actually weighs. sincerely, your humblest queen moron, slobmonster
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jt512
Dec 11, 2003, 6:52 PM
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In reply to: Oh, folks, now the personal derision starts. Read my caveats carefully. Don't use this, or any technique, if you aren't fully comfortable with it. The only reason you are comfortable with it is that you don't have any common sense. -Jay
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junkie
Dec 11, 2003, 7:02 PM
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In reply to: Read my caveats carefully. Don't use this, or any technique, if you aren't fully comfortable with it. Can I add to that?: ...or if your partner does not feel comfortable with their belayer using this technique. If I ever saw my partner messing around with that whie I was on the other end of the rope, a ...discussion... would ensue. And probably the end of a climbing partnership. I like my safety. I agree that, while you are not holding a full load on the biner, and I realise that this is a static load, not dynamic, but the point remains: it is still unsafe to open the gate while the biner is weighted.
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jimdavis
Dec 11, 2003, 7:37 PM
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Rule Number 1 in Climbing: Never open a loaded biner. Rule Number 2 in Climbing: Gravity. (It's not just a good idea, it's a law.)
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jt512
Dec 11, 2003, 7:41 PM
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In reply to: Rule Number 1 in Climbing: Never open a loaded biner. Rule Number 2 in Climbing: Gravity. (It's not just a good idea, it's a law.) If those are Rules 1 and 2, then the Zeroth Rule must be, "Don't violate the integrity of the belay chain," which is precisely what opening your belay carabiner, while your partner is on belay, does. -Jay
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rock_raptor
Dec 11, 2003, 7:44 PM
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forget this one too...don't care anymore
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brianinslc
Dec 11, 2003, 8:01 PM
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In reply to: Read my caveats carefully. Don't use this, or any technique, if you aren't fully comfortable with it. I was espousing an alternate --and in my experience easy, efficient, ans *safe*-- to the Piggyback described above. And btw 'biners have gate-open strength for a reason. No, they should not under any circumstances be loaded dynamically with the gate open. That is a 'duh.' My technique requires that the GriGri be loaded and locked, thus tensioning the biner attaching it to your harness. This is not a dynamic load, but a static one, and with rope stretch and friction you're likely to be holding far less than what your partner actually weighs. Whoo, bad idea jeans. Why not just clip a biner ala the "Piggy Back GriGri"? Easy enough. I think opening a locking carabiner, whilst loaded with "live weight", is a really really bad idea. Its about the same as takin' your partner off belay. Makes my skin crawl to just think about it... I can't imagine lookin' down and seein' my partner opening a locker from which I'm hanging. Many explatives would issue forth as I tried desparately to clip into a solid anchor. There is no margin for error. Bad bad idea. "Might" be ok if you first put a bite into the rope and clipped it to another locking carabiner...so at least you'd have some margin for error (which is what most folks would do if they realized, "dude, your the hand"). Yikes! I increase friction with my gri gri by using an ATC above or below it. Especially on rappel with, say, a heavy pig. A munter hitch on a biner clipped to the leg loop can work as well and easy to tie off if need be. Brian in SLC
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redpiton
Dec 11, 2003, 8:30 PM
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Let 'em do it. Let 'em unclip and kill people. It's less buggers at the crags. :wink: Darwin had a good point. :lol:
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bustloose
Dec 11, 2003, 8:45 PM
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In reply to: Oh, folks, now the personal derision starts. Read my caveats carefully. Don't use this, or any technique, if you aren't fully comfortable with it. I was espousing an alternate --and in my experience easy, efficient, ans *safe*-- to the Piggyback described above. dude, it's not personal derision to call you an idiot for doing idiotic things. This has nothing to do with your 'caveats', I could quite happily say "don't do this if you're uncomforatble with it, but to clean an anchor i simply grab a hold, unclip everything, put it on my harness, untie with one hand, pass it through the rap rings, and tie back in with one hand... voila, mess free cleaning" people would be well within their rights to question this, and try to make me see how stupid and dangerous it is. Lots of things can happen in the time it takes you to screw around with the rope... like maybe your partner reaches back in to grab a couple of holds, or maybe he pulls back up on the rope for a minute, or, or or... Do you really want to be the guy that got his partner killed because he can't use a Gri Gri properly for lowering...? It is NOT a 'safe' option. Why not just use the freakn thing the way it was designed to be used? I have belayed and lowered all manner of sizes and shapes of climbers with a Gri, and never ever had an issue controlling the speed of their descent. I can pretty much guarantee you that you are the only person who does this or thinks it is a good idea, except for maybe a beginner or two that you may have shown your 'tricks' to... *shudder*
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j_ung
Dec 11, 2003, 8:54 PM
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Hey slobmonster, I get what you're trying to say. And, I don't think it's all that bad. Hell, anyone who climbs long enough knows that gear can do amazing things in some situations, and few of those things, if any, are recommended by manufacturers. Anybody ever back up a rappel with an autoblock? Well, DANGER, friction hitches are NOT recommended uses of accessory cord. Why do you think nuts are called nuts? Because once upon a time, they actually were nuts - and not exactly recommended for holding climbing falls. In some areas of the world, a sling with a knot in it is used for protection; also NOT a recommended use. I could go on, but I'll spare you. Suggestion: To avoid breaking the open biner rule in this case, just rig your set up before he or she unclips from the anchor to lower. Problem solved. And for all those who would never ever break any rule under any circumstances, don't climb aid. j_ung
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climbsomething
Dec 11, 2003, 9:04 PM
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This thread is another great example of gumby innovation. Good god, if you can't use the device in its intended way, DON'T USE IT AT ALL.
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salami
Dec 11, 2003, 9:09 PM
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How about we all have a warm glass of shut the he11 up. why don't the attackers have two. We all have different ways of doing things. it's not like the guy doesn't know about the shearing strength of biners. jt512 why is it that reading your verbal diarrhea reminds me of sitting in the dentists chair? I think the only useful things you have ever had to say were about nutrition. Stick with what you know and keep your infested mouth shut otherwise. This guy was not asking for opinions, he was just stating what he does. blah blah blah I know you were not asking for an opinion either, but i would not consider this an opinion. I am just stating the facts.
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jimdavis
Dec 11, 2003, 9:27 PM
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In reply to: How about we all have a warm glass of shut the he11 up. why don't the attackers have two. We all have different ways of doing things. it's not like the guy doesn't know about the shearing strength of biners. jt512 why is it that reading your verbal diarrhea reminds me of sitting in the dentists chair? I think the only useful things you have ever had to say were about nutrition. Stick with what you know and keep your infested mouth shut otherwise. This guy was not asking for opinions, he was just stating what he does. blah blah blah I know you were not asking for an opinion either, but i would not consider this an opinion. I am just stating the facts. There isn't a single FACT in your entire post. Opening a loaded biner IS DANGEROUS and SHOULD NOT BE DONE!!! That, is a fact.
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jt512
Dec 11, 2003, 10:49 PM
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In reply to: jt512 why is it that reading your verbal diarrhea reminds me of sitting in the dentists chair? I think the only useful things you have ever had to say were about nutrition. Stick with what you know and keep your infested mouth shut otherwise. This guy was not asking for opinions, he was just stating what he does. I don't give a fuck whether the guy was asking for opinions or not. He posted a patently dangerous and completely unnecessary technique, and that needs to be pointed out to the other clueless gumbies on the site, such as yourself. -Jay
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j_ung
Dec 11, 2003, 11:19 PM
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This thread sucks. Flame on, Human Torch, I'm out. Word.
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kman
Dec 11, 2003, 11:38 PM
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qoute:
In reply to: The only reason you are comfortable with it is that you don't have any common sense. I think that pretty much sums it up.
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