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dsafanda
Dec 12, 2003, 7:40 PM
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In reply to: to all you fools that say you shouldn't fall on your daisy
Who said that? Not a single person in this thread said you shouldn't fall on a daisy. Multiple people have simply pointed out that adjustable daisys are not designed to withstand large falls and that there's a reason we use ropes clipped through gear in addition to the aid system. You think that the adjustable daisy should hold under these falls? I'm not a gear manufacturer so I don't have an answer. It would be very interesting to know whether Yates thinks the daisy in this case failed in an unusual manner or behaved according to expectations. Let us know if you find out an anser to that question.
Thanks
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crotch
Dec 12, 2003, 8:02 PM
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In reply to: half way through tying in the whole edge just blows, he wasn't bouncing, shifting or anything.
Out of curiousity, had it rained in the past day or two? I remember that edge seeming pretty solid.
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flamer
Dec 12, 2003, 8:25 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: half way through tying in the whole edge just blows, he wasn't bouncing, shifting or anything. Out of curiousity, had it rained in the past day or two? I remember that edge seeming pretty solid.
Brent thanks for chiming in Bro!! I didn't want to name, names....it's good to hear your perspective, since you were there and all!!
Thanks for "grabbing all the strands and arresting his fall"- It would kill me to not have his Steve Roper looking, super human bladder having a$$ around!
Just to clarify my reason for posting this was a simple heads up!!
HAVE FUN!!!
josh
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janr
Dec 12, 2003, 8:30 PM
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In reply to: Could The "aider style" webbing be made into tubular?
1" flat webbing is plenty strong enough. The FISH site gives the figure 3700 lbs for this type of webbing. But when you bend it over a tiny edge like in the ADC buckle, you're going to lose (not "loose" - pedantic gripe) a fair amount of strenth. Starting with stronger webbing might help, but I wonder if improvements could be made in the buckle. Perhaps you could replace the squared-off metal edge and teeth with a small rounded cam? A fancier, made-for-climbing buckle would increase the price though. Would you be willing to pay $30 or more for a stronger ADC?
In reply to: I've been achored many times only by adjustable daisies, sometimes whilst belaying a parnter who was running it out pretty far off the belay.
Kind of scary, Mel. I'm glad your partner never tested this arrangement. Do you still do this?
If a #3 stopper had failed in a fall like this, nobody would have blinked. But the strength rating for a small nut is about the same as for the Yates ADC. How hard do you think it is to generate 1500 lbs? Maybe that's why the manufacturers of aiders and daisies always add the dummy statement "for bodyweight only".
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copperhead
Dec 12, 2003, 8:31 PM
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Sorry, I had to edit this because I didn’t see the next page of responses… Doh!
Go figure. I never have trusted adjustable daisies and now you know why. The cam-buckle mechanism. Jeeze, I get gripped sometimes with four of them holding down my bike in my pickup. Why trust your life to only one of them? The cam-buckle is a mechanical weakness, as Russ said. I wouldn’t doubt it if webbing can be cut by the simple ‘pinching’ of the webbing, considering the amount of force generated in a static fall and the super-small surface area of buckle on webbing. The cam-pinch could probably cut the webbing without much tension (if any) on the webbing itself, but remember that this is hypothetical (in a climbing situation, it’s difficult to put 16 kN on the buckle and 0 kN on the webbing…). I don’t think it’s a sharp teeth or radius problem – it’s a pinching problem because that’s how the cam-buckle works. A single strand of webbing without a cam-buckle might have held his fall.
Yates should not be blamed in the least. They make excellent quality gear and the reason that the product failed was that it was used for a purpose that it was not designed for. Climbing gear has its limitations; beware of them.
PTPP used to preach about how he would untie from the lead-line and only use his daisies at the bivy; his daisies were adjustable, right? What if he slipped or his ledge taco’d and he generated some sort of static force on the daisy? Toast because he refused to stay tied-in? I have found the adjustable fifi to be more hassle than it’s worth; it just gets in the way.
Josh brings up a good point and that is about spectra. It is much more static (in behavior) than nylon webbing, though not quite as static as fat steel cable or chain. I guess the same can be said for equalizing dicey pieces on lead – don’t use spectra. The Yates ‘screamer’ daisies have a ‘shorty screamer’ attached at one end. Their catalog specifically recommends using a ‘shorty screamer’ in conjunction with their spectra daisies, for obvious reasons. The ‘shorty screamers’ will absorb 3-4 kN. If we start with 16 kN (the figure provided above (extreme case)) and subtract 4 kN, we still have 12 kN or almost 2700 lbs. That’s still enough to break the daisy.
Go with looped, nylon daisies. The one that I have here is 64” long and has 18 loops, excluding the end loops. It’s custom from Flagstaff. As far as I know, nobody makes daisies that are long enough. Russ? Another advantage of the looped daisy is that each bar-tack between the loops acts like a mini-screamer if you fall on a loop (with a biner). The tack (or all three/four) will blow and absorb some of the energy. Obviously, this is not the case when the daisy is clipped at full length.
Ok, I will be the one to say it. Daisy falls are bad – not recommended. I was working on a project a while back and was re-leading a pitch that I’d climbed several months before. I was moving onto a fixed #1 head (after testing it) and was still daisied to the hook just below me. I didn’t have time to remove the hook before… POP! The cable on the head snapped and I took a daisy fall onto the hook. It wasn’t full-length or factor 2 because I wasn’t that far above the hook. But still, with super-long daisies, I went for a little ride. No way! The hook held! What surprised me more was that the thin, hollow flake didn’t blow apart – I was gripped when hanging from the thing in the first place. Anyways, taking full-length (or near) daisy falls is not proper aid climbing technique. Avoid them. One of my friends has a video clip of a girl taking a static daisy fall as she neared the end of the first pitch of the Zodiac. Ouch! She was ok but the impact folded her in two, like a rag-doll. It is best to clip the rope into your lower piece as soon as you un-weight it. Unclip your daisy/aiders ASAP so that if the new piece pops, you’re on the rope and not the daisy. If your gear is dicey, the chances of it holding a fall are much better if you are falling on the rope and not the daisy, especially when there is a lot of rope out. Exceptions might be when on a string of run-out hooks with a dangerous fall – better to take a daisy fall than hit a ledge below (if the hook holds…).
As for the climbing scenario and the fall, yeah there are more risks associated with speed-climbing, but this one seems kinda silly. It sounds like he is lucky that he didn’t get hurt worse. I can see flying up a solid bolt ladder without clipping anything, but moving onto a hook while above a ledge? How much extra time would it have taken to slap a Neutrino draw on the last bolt before the hook move? Less than it took for him to regain his psyche and re-climb the bolts… Glad he is ok.
====
Ummm, now that I have read Alpinestylist’s report, I am confused. Did he clip the last bolt? Had you not grabbed all the strands, would he have gone the distance of the remaining rope that he was short-fixing on? Was the fall (after the daisy broke) due to the belay change-over?
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flamer
Dec 12, 2003, 8:34 PM
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In reply to: Correct me if I'm wring but short fixing by nature does NOT mean you don't clip pro. However, I still think it might be fair based on everything that's being said to second guess the technique of running it way out while relying on nothing other than an adjustable daisy to catch you in the event of a fall. I bet your friend might now agree?
It does if you're only 2 moves up....so he wasn't running it way out.
Sorry if my original post wasn't totally specific.
Now that Alpinestylist has posted his version of events, hopefully things will seem more clear.
josh
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ricardol
Dec 12, 2003, 8:42 PM
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not surprised that a adj. daisy broke on a near factor 2 fall ..
.. add me to the list of folks who have taken static daisy falls .. i retired the adj. daisy after that fall.. (it was a yates one -- no visible damage .. but better safe than sorry) .. i use metolious daisies now ..
.. i also tie in with the adj. daisies at the belay -- but back it up with the lead line (significantly longer tie in that the daisies .. ) -- if i fall and the daisies break .. then the lead line will stop me ...
.. there is a significating convenience factor to being able to move around on the belay and adjust your tie in as you haul/make dinner/etc ..
-- ricardo
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gawd
Dec 12, 2003, 8:43 PM
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In reply to: YOU DUMB F**K!!! My friend wasn't using a cam hook!! The Cam hook incident happened at Lumpy ridge- which is Granite. The only reason I mentioned it was because the static fall he took that day may have had something to do with the failure on this fall. He was using a standard hook on a BIG edge about 2 bolts up the ladder and maybe 10 ft off the HUGE ledge...MOST people use this hook to get through the blank section between bolts. And in fact he had used this hook at least 3 times before. He is also very Anti-cam hooks in sandstone. Further more this guy is an EXTREMLY good friend of mine who YOU DON'T KNOW! He is also very humble and an excellent climber. You're lucky there is a computer between us right now. How come everyone but you understood what was going on? josh
how does personally insulting and threating a person prove your point. you should be banned for this. your attitude is pathetic and your willingness not to listen without attempting to put emotion into the situation warrants you as a weak person and probably a shitty climber to boot.
apparently your friend is not solid if he fell on a c1 bolt ladder and guess what more often then not solid climbers die from petty mistakes.
also like mr walling and mr soles i do not see this as suprising in any way. your inability to see this as a possible occurence and your friends inability to see this as a possible occurence again leads me to believe that both of you are short sighted climbers and this will result at some point in either your death or significant injury.
and how can a person not climb c1/.10 crack routes that are only 5 pitches long in short measure?
i fail to see you or your friend as good climbers.
listen and do not talk as you have nothing positive to contribute to the situation. you obviously have much to learn when it comes to climbing. so shut the fuck up.
thanks!
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russwalling
Dec 12, 2003, 8:54 PM
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###Go with looped, nylon daisies. The one that I have here is 64” long and has 18 loops, excluding the end loops. It’s custom from Flagstaff. As far as I know, nobody makes daisies that are long enough. Russ? ###
FISH has been making a "real" daisy for about a hundred years.... we call it the "Super Daisy" and it is just about 6 feet long. Sold some to BD employees 'cause theirs are too short! I have always said a daisy should be longer than your reach... so if you are tiny, adjust accordingly.
Plus, this was probably covered before in a long dead thread, but testing on your daisy chains is lame, inefficient at getting the force up, and dangerous. Anyone who is testing on an adjustable dasiy is just plain nuts.
adios,
Russ
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dsafanda
Dec 12, 2003, 9:14 PM
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I've bounce tested palcements with adjustable daisys. I'm certainly not nuts but there's always a good chance I'm ignorant and/or stupid. What am I risking in this scenario? Worst case scenario...the piece I'm testing pops and I fall on to the adj daisy on my lower piece. It breaks and I go a bit farther until the rope through that piece stops me. Is that what you're talking abut Russ? You lose a daisy but it doesn't seem significantly more dangerous than landing on a stronger non adjustable daisy. If anything it seems like shockloading a non adjustable daisy would be more likely to start zippering gear.
Or do you simply mean that a long of string of iffy placements can't be adequately tested because I can't generate enough force with adjustable an adjustable daisy.
What am I missing?
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copperhead
Dec 12, 2003, 9:19 PM
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In reply to: FISH has been making a "real" daisy for about a hundred years.... we call it the "Super Daisy" and it is just about 6 feet long. Sold some to BD employees 'cause theirs are too short! I have always said a daisy should be longer than your reach... so if you are tiny, adjust accordingly.
Cool, now I know where I can get new ones when all of mine have finally worn out. Thanks Russ!
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iamthewallress
Dec 12, 2003, 9:20 PM
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In reply to: The piece I'm testing pops and I fall on to the adj daisy on my lower piece.
If you're bounce testing a piece (I mean more than a little yank-yank with one foot to make sure it's set) aren't you pretty much tight (with a touch of wiggle) to your bottom daisy?
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flamer
Dec 12, 2003, 9:21 PM
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In reply to: how does personally insulting and threating a person prove your point. you should be banned for this. your attitude is pathetic and your willingness not to listen without attempting to put emotion into the situation warrants you as a weak person and probably a s--- climber to boot. apparently your friend is not solid if he fell on a c1 bolt ladder and guess what more often then not solid climbers die from petty mistakes. also like mr walling and mr soles i do not see this as suprising in any way. your inability to see this as a possible occurence and your friends inability to see this as a possible occurence again leads me to believe that both of you are short sighted climbers and this will result at some point in either your death or significant injury. and how can a person not climb c1/.10 crack routes that are only 5 pitches long in short measure? i fail to see you or your friend as good climbers. listen and do not talk as you have nothing positive to contribute to the situation. you obviously have much to learn when it comes to climbing. so shut the f--- up. thanks!
First of all I'm pretty sure this is a Troll and so are you in general.
Second of all I'm at work and feeling kind'a spicy today so I'll answer you...for sport.
My point was easily proven because he was obviouly to stupid to read the original post(or maybe to understand it). There were what 10? other people who read it and understood perfectly. So Mr. slabbyd decide's to be insulting about it even though what he ASSUME'S happened was VERY OBVIUOSLY NOT WHAT HAPPENED!! So yes He gets the Dumb F**k of the day award!!
I never said I was surprised that an ADC would break under these circumstances. I posted more than once that I was simply giving people out there a reminder and a heads up.
And what kind of weak person and $hit climber RATS OUT THE ENTIRE CLIMBING COMMUNITY LIKE YOU DID IN YOSEMITE???
I never said anything about anyones climbing ability...until it was questioned..and then I simply defended a friend,,,who is a very good climber. And isn't here to represent himself.
So in short F**K YOU pansy.
You don't think I'm a good climber? Oh no the world has stopped moving, I must throw down my aiders and start doing Pilatte's...GAWD DOESN"T THINK I'M A GOOD CLIMBER!!
Plus BAD KARMA is flowing..
josh
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deleted
Deleted
Dec 12, 2003, 9:22 PM
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[quote:607140ee30="flamer"]Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the Metolious aren't as strong as the Yates[/quote:607140ee30]
oh [b:607140ee30]great[/b:607140ee30]! so [b:607140ee30]now[/b:607140ee30] you tell me i'm hangin' my 200 pounds of solid steel and sex appeal on inferior gear! :lol: no more weights and protein shakes for [b:607140ee30]this[/b:607140ee30] wide-body.
russ -- thanks for chiming in; informative post.
clyde -- how's the aftermarket knee?
oh, and, gawd ... i can attest to the fact flamer's the [i:607140ee30]real deal[/i:607140ee30], buddy.
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dsafanda
Dec 12, 2003, 9:29 PM
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In reply to: If you're bounce testing a piece (I mean more than a little yank-yank with one foot to make sure it's set) aren't you pretty much tight (with a touch of wiggle) to your bottom daisy?
Usually but sometimes I'm off to the side or somewhat above(not ideal) the piece that the lower daisy is connected to so at least in theory a short fall would be possible. Have you tested iffy placements with adjustables?
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gawd
Dec 12, 2003, 10:07 PM
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flamer
so you use being at work to justify your threat to another human being? that is very unstable way to think.
i do not see how someone's interpetation on your post shows them as a fucking asshole and requires you to attempt and or claim physical harm against them. those are the thoughts of an unstable/ dangerous person and i am sure these thoughts and actions can and will flow into the rest of your life, if they have not already.
please show me where i underminded climbers in yosemite. you have no actual proof. i read that as in fact you support a sexual predator and again this shows you are unstable.
one must believe in karma for it to be a reality, as said so by mahatma bhudda himself. i am not bhuddist or attempt to claim i am such. he also said "a person cannot half believe in a system of order without accepting the entire system." bhuddists are not violent people and therefore see you as a farce in your attempt to place blame and justice against me.
mtngeo i could careless who/what flamer is and the same goes for you. your attempt to name drop continually on this site is quite laughable. i am sure you are a nice person in life, but again i could careless.
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karlbaba
Dec 12, 2003, 10:30 PM
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I constantly test using my adjustable daisy and can't see how it would be remotely dangerous. It allows me to keep both feet in my aiders and grab those same aiders with both hands so that I don't go whipping around if the peice I'm testing blows. Falling back on the previous daisy isn't an issue.
If the piece is bomber, I usually know it already and don't need to wail on it. If the piece is dicey, I don't want much, much more than body weight on it anyway.
If it holds, I cut my feet out of my aiders and move em up to the next piece. That way, I've reduced cluster and if the piece blows then, I'm less likely to fall over backwards with my feet in the aiders.
After a step or two, I might backclean the previous placement, or might not, depending on all the circumstances. Where's the danger Russ? Adjustable daisies save a good deal of effort for a weak punk like me. I used looped ones for 15 years before switching and I'm not going back (although I'd consider using a combination)
Edit: I use looped daisies when free climbing, mainly to clip in the belay, particularly when switching rope ends. I always clip the rope into the belay, a bit looser, and like to stack the rope over the slight loop of rope between me and the belay. Aid climbing, I always clip the rope to the belay as well, unclipping to switch rope ends and manage things, usually while clipped in with two daisies.
Peace
karl
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flamer
Dec 12, 2003, 10:30 PM
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In reply to: flamer so you use being at work to justify your threat to another human being? that is very unstable way to think. i do not see how someone's interpetation on your post shows them as a f---ing asshole and requires you to attempt and or claim physical harm against them. those are the thoughts of an unstable/ dangerous person and i am sure these thoughts and actions can and will flow into the rest of your life, if they have not already. please show me where i underminded climbers in yosemite. you have no actual proof. i read that as in fact you support a sexual predator and again this shows you are unstable. one must believe in karma for it to be a reality, as said so by mahatma bhudda himself. i am not bhuddist or attempt to claim i am such. he also said "a person cannot half believe in a system of order without accepting the entire system." bhuddists are not violent people and therefore see you as a farce in your attempt to place blame and justice against me. mtngeo i could careless who/what flamer is and the same goes for you. your attempt to name drop continually on this site is quite laughable. i am sure you are a nice person in life, but again i could careless.
HAHA!! Ok this is kind'a fun but only because you are such a GOOF!
I think I'll just leave it be.
Anyone with input about ADC's or this incident please feel free, sorry if this got off track.
josh
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dsafanda
Dec 12, 2003, 10:50 PM
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In reply to: It allows me to keep both feet in my aiders and grab those same aiders with both hands so that I don't go whipping around if the peice I'm testing blows.
Karl did a much better job of describing how I tend to used adjustable daisys to test. My ramblings about falling on to the lower aider were just designed to try and figure out what Russ was talking about. I was trying to imagine worse case scenario.
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crotch
Dec 12, 2003, 10:51 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: half way through tying in the whole edge just blows, he wasn't bouncing, shifting or anything. Out of curiousity, had it rained in the past day or two? I remember that edge seeming pretty solid. A good question...but also consider the THOUSANDS of people who have hooked that same edge, it could have just had enough and blown.
Sure. It might have just been time for the edge to blow, but still it would be nice to know if it had rained in the two days prior to the event.
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ricardol
Dec 12, 2003, 11:19 PM
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this is the same way i use the adj. daisies .. (sometimes testing with teh adj. daisies -- sometimes testing by wailing on the aider) ..
.. good description karl .. i was able to close my eyes an transport myself back to the big stone .. putting a dicey hook -- getting my weight on it ...cutting my feet .. hangin by my harness as i removed the last aider from the previous piece ... and then the sudden feeling of weightlessness (with a small tug at the waist) .. as the cam-hook above blew! ..
fun fun fun -- can't wait to next spring!
-- ricardo
In reply to: I constantly test using my adjustable daisy and can't see how it would be remotely dangerous. It allows me to keep both feet in my aiders and grab those same aiders with both hands so that I don't go whipping around if the peice I'm testing blows. Falling back on the previous daisy isn't an issue. If the piece is bomber, I usually know it already and don't need to wail on it. If the piece is dicey, I don't want much, much more than body weight on it anyway. If it holds, I cut my feet out of my aiders and move em up to the next piece. That way, I've reduced cluster and if the piece blows then, I'm less likely to fall over backwards with my feet in the aiders. After a step or two, I might backclean the previous placement, or might not, depending on all the circumstances. Where's the danger Russ? Adjustable daisies save a good deal of effort for a weak punk like me. I used looped ones for 15 years before switching and I'm not going back (although I'd consider using a combination) Edit: I use looped daisies when free climbing, mainly to clip in the belay, particularly when switching rope ends. I always clip the rope into the belay, a bit looser, and like to stack the rope over the slight loop of rope between me and the belay. Aid climbing, I always clip the rope to the belay as well, unclipping to switch rope ends and manage things, usually while clipped in with two daisies. Peace karl |
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Dec 12, 2003, 11:34 PM
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[quote:5336e7d636="gawd"]mtngeo i could careless who/what flamer is and the same goes for you. your attempt to name drop continually on this site is quite laughable. [/quote:5336e7d636]
gawd, i have no quarrel with you; why the vitriolic attitude? "name drop"? i have no idea of what you speak. if you would be so kind as to use the "quote" tool or cut and paste some examples in support of your claim, i'd appreciate it. i would suggest perhaps you have confused me with another user.
[quote:5336e7d636="gawd"]i am sure you are a nice person in life, but again i could careless.[/quote:5336e7d636]
no. i am not a nice person. my breath stinks, my feet smell, and i don't put the seat down. but since you don't "careless" it's a moot point, i suppose.
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russwalling
Dec 13, 2003, 12:26 AM
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##Where's the danger Russ?##
For one, it is always dangerous to have a piece of gear fail when it can be avoided, but.....
Clarification: BOUNCE testing. Sluping down a couple of times on your ADC is not the same thing. Here is the danger: massive string of junk..... inadequate string of slumping daisy tests.... daisy fails, fall out of lower aiders, rip all pieces. I prefer to not have the added excitement of a daisy failing or unproven pieces below me. Or, string of junk linked with hooks or the odd rivet..... daisy fails on a test of any kind..... giant ripper potential, even if the piece was good! With an ADC, I think you get to sample all these problems.
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alpinestylist
Dec 13, 2003, 1:05 AM
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So in all honesty this kind of sucks, that this string is now kinda wack
. Quick little weekender to Zion with a friend. Weather frosty but splitta, too much NPR at night, 3.2 slur in Utah. We climbed space shot cuz I never have. Marc had climbed it once before. He started at 5 pm (alone) and topped out about 2am. Not because he wanted to be cool and "night solo" but because the crowds were bad and he was stoked on the route. I thought that was cool, but with Marc, no big deal.
We had a mishap on the first aid pitch. He was short fixing. Stood on one bolt, stood up, placed a hook and weighted it. About that time my huffing, puffing 5 toed ass makes it to the ledge. Desperately thrashing with cord I tie a sharp end to his aider. Hey Marc, tie in! I yell. Without blinking he pulls up his aider and grabs the new cord.
PING! it all goes bad, I had interrupted his process. Maybe he would have clipped the first bolt, maybe not. He probably hadn't gotten that far in the decision making process.
Now he/I get some slag.
No worries, fun time. Like I said I have seen this happen with good friends before. I use looped daisys for this reason. While short fixing I don't know how much good clippin the first bolt would have been. Assuming (which in using them you do) that the daisy would not explode.
When I test on jive sections I try to get as low as possible, Extending the daisy to full length (normal daisy). Shorting up daisy slack in old piece, and furiously bounce. IF that goes well, THEN I'm in the aiders hopping to test. I expect my daisy to withstand this load. I agree that clipping the loweer piece as quick as possible is quite prudent. Withstanding odd scenarios like hooking. I've had hooks hold too on full daisy flyers.
Hope maybe some PC "ADC awareness" comes of this.
Everybody chill.
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karlbaba
Dec 13, 2003, 2:08 AM
Post #50 of 85
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Registered: Jul 10, 2002
Posts: 1159
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In reply to: ##Where's the danger Russ?## For one, it is always dangerous to have a piece of gear fail when it can be avoided, but..... Clarification: BOUNCE testing. Sluping down a couple of times on your ADC is not the same thing. Here is the danger: massive string of junk..... inadequate string of slumping daisy tests.... daisy fails, fall out of lower aiders, rip all pieces. I prefer to not have the added excitement of a daisy failing or unproven pieces below me. Or, string of junk linked with hooks or the odd rivet..... daisy fails on a test of any kind..... giant ripper potential, even if the piece was good! With an ADC, I think you get to sample all these problems.
Am I correct in assuming you're a funk tester then? Cause I don't see climbing in ladders on the piece and bouncing around being any safer.
If you really looking at leaving a long line of junk, it's going to rip under hard funking anyway, unless the climber is only leaving junk cause he doesn't know how to place gear.
Peace
Karl
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