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skibabeage
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Dec 17, 2003, 6:16 PM
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rockprodigy


Dec 17, 2003, 7:02 PM
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Re: US House Supports NPS Management of Fixed Anchors [In reply to]
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Yeah...that sure sounds like good news if you are a climber.

I'm not sure I like the idea of special interests pressuring congress into signing letters which pressure government agencies to manage a certain way.

The NPS is supposed to do what is best for the Park, not what is best for the latest special interest. It should not be a political stunt.

What if the ATV community pressured congress into signing a similar letter supporting ATV use in NPS wilderness??


jds100


Dec 23, 2003, 12:54 PM
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Re: US House Supports NPS Management of Fixed Anchors [In reply to]
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Actually, I think they're supposed to weigh a number of factors, and do what is in the "best interest" of managing the Parks in a way that the citizenry can enjoy them. And, that's where so much is open to the individual interpretation of different land management officials.

Park managers are real human beings with as wide a variety of agendas and interests as any other people in the work force. There's no way to know what the interests of any given Park manager may be, other than to look at the record of their actions. If a Park official is perhaps most interested in advancing a career into Washington, for example, his or her actions might be directed toward the political agenda of some party leader. There is political oversight for a reason, and it's a good thing that special interest -advocacy- groups can get access to the politicians.

Wilderness designated land is different than National Park Service land. And, the mere existence of a letter certainly does not equate to acceding to the demands of the advocacy group. If, as in your example, the ATV users group tried to assert some "right" to use wilderness lands as they chose, they'd have a hard legal road ahead. If they tried to show that their use exacted minimal damage or effect, they'd have a high bar to hurdle, and they'd likely lose on that, too.

If climbers and other advocacy groups can share in the success of their ultimate position as a user group, it would be based on the demonstrated merits of their case. I don't know what that would have to do with a "political stunt".


fitzontherocks


Dec 23, 2003, 1:02 PM
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Re: US House Supports NPS Management of Fixed Anchors [In reply to]
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Didn't the right wingers in DC just repeal a ban of ATVs (snowmobiles) in one of the popular areas? Can't remember which. RMNP or someplace in Minnesota?


sandbag


Dec 23, 2003, 1:08 PM
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Re: US House Supports NPS Management of Fixed Anchors [In reply to]
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actually, the government, technically, should do what the people want, ie by popular vote etc. i know thats simplistic, but thats the way it was originally designed and set up. Its a wholly different animal nowadays.... :roll:


jds100


Dec 23, 2003, 1:19 PM
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Re: US House Supports NPS Management of Fixed Anchors [In reply to]
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No, the government shouldn't do what people want by popular vote, and that's not how it was originally set up. We live in a democratic republic, so leaders are elected by popular vote to do what they think is best. Because these leaders are subject to the voters through re-election or not, they usually do take into account the wishes of the electorate (at least publicly). But, the idea is to elect people who we, the electorate, believe to be the most qualified in their expertise for whatever office they're filling. Just as we don't subject your health care decisions to a vote, instead letting your physician and you make those decisions, we don't submit every decision made about the functioning of the country to a popular vote. We're supposed to be electing qualified experts to do the jobs that we entrust to them, but instead people are getting elected based on being attractive, or witty, or "tough"; rarely if ever because they are intelligent, thoughtful, tactful, diplomatic, or even have a record of successful leadership.


sandbag


Dec 23, 2003, 1:26 PM
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Re: US House Supports NPS Management of Fixed Anchors [In reply to]
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In reply to:
No, the government shouldn't do what people want by popular vote, and that's not how it was originally set up. We live in a democratic republic, so leaders are elected by popular vote to do what they think is best. Because these leaders are subject to the voters through re-election or not, they usually do take into account the wishes of the electorate (at least publicly). But, the idea is to elect people who we, the electorate, believe to be the most qualified in their expertise for whatever office they're filling. Just as we don't subject your health care decisions to a vote, instead letting your physician and you make those decisions, we don't submit every decision made about the functioning of the country to a popular vote. We're supposed to be electing qualified experts to do the jobs that we entrust to them, but instead people are getting elected based on being attractive, or witty, or "tough"; rarely if ever because they are intelligent, thoughtful, tactful, diplomatic, or even have a record of successful leadership.

Good points, the only elected officials we have control over aret he reps and the senate. they are the "qualified" individuals that we elect from the pouplar votes of the regions in whcih states they originate from. The Comittess, and the organizations like the USDA, NPS, are all directly tied to the budgets and Legislation that the "qualified" individuals propagate. Im cynical to a fault about the overall process, because it doesnt allow truely qualified, and truly genuine people occupy those positions very often. Either way, the fore fathers could have never dreamed the direction the govt would have taken, hence the reason they set it up in the Democratic republic. this is a debate for the next time i roll through St louis. Ill look you up.


troutboy


Dec 23, 2003, 1:47 PM
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Re: US House Supports NPS Management of Fixed Anchors [In reply to]
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In reply to:
Didn't the right wingers in DC just repeal a ban of ATVs (snowmobiles) in one of the popular areas? Can't remember which. RMNP or someplace in Minnesota?

Yes, he (Bush) did. However, a Federal judge overturned the ban.
And the issue is at yellowstone NP.

Read this:

In reply to:
Yellowstone, Wyo. (Ski Press)-A U.S. District Judge said Wednesday the National Park Service must re-invoke a Clinton era Yellowstone snowmobile ban.

Judge Emmet Sullivan told the Park Service and the Bush Administration that they had not shown clear cause for disregarding the snowmobile ban. The original ruling had banned snowmobiles in favor of snow coaches, but limited snowmobile use was allowed in favor of new more efficient noise and pollution-reducing engines.

And although the ruling is expected to be challenged by pro-snowmobile interests, the agreement will still allow nearly 500 individual snowmobilers per day in Yellowstone and 50 per day in Grand Teton – less than half the ‘bilers allowed in the Bush plan.

TS


jds100


Dec 23, 2003, 6:08 PM
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Re: US House Supports NPS Management of Fixed Anchors [In reply to]
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Thanks, Jason. I was thinking about this a little later, too, and it occurred to me that what we endure now (as opposed to what was probably envisioned by the founding fathers) is political leadership by people that could not make it very successfully in a competitive business or otherwise "real world" environment. Yes, I know there are some examples of people with good track records before and after public service, but the real long-timers are incredibly insular in their exposure to the real-life everyday concerns of the voting public. It's an incestuous revolving-door relationship with a relatively small number of special businesses, think-tanks, lobbiest firms, etc. that provide the after-service jobs, the before-service jobs, and fodder for the new crop of mediocre unoriginal idealolgues.

It makes me think, too, of an analogy: consider going to a doctor for an operation, and all you have to choose from are the ones who barely graduated, or got through on the "Gentleman's C" and the legacy admission policies of their fathers' alma matres. Most of these hacks are the ones who couldn't do it in the "real world", and can't after their terms are up, either.


Partner one900johnnyk


Dec 23, 2003, 6:49 PM
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Re: US House Supports NPS Management of Fixed Anchors [In reply to]
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now THAT'S news, baby... cool post, thanks


trapdoor


Dec 23, 2003, 6:55 PM
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Re: US House Supports NPS Management of Fixed Anchors [In reply to]
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Democracy, unchecked is mob rule.


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