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joshklingbeil
Dec 30, 2003, 12:27 AM
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In November the park service said they were going to charge $5 a night per person starting mid January. I went back this week and now they said $5 a Night per site starting mid February. I wonder whats going to be next......
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rrrADAM
Dec 30, 2003, 12:29 AM
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posted in Gear Heads ???
Moving to Access Issues.
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rrrADAM
Dec 30, 2003, 12:29 AM
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rrrADAM moved this thread from Gear Heads to Access Issues & Closures.
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okc_discgolfer
Dec 30, 2003, 12:49 AM
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your lucky....here in oklahoma a over night stay @ a park will cost at least $7 and that is the "off season"
how i read....u were giving the impression that the $5 per person per night would be better?????
/me scratches head
we have had 15-20 people share a single site permit that is apx < $0.50 per person. i for one personally support the fee's. after all how do you think they pay for maintainence to the park? think about where your money is going.... its not going to the general fund to pad the pocket of some rich polititian all the money raise by parks services stays with the parks :)
and remember... take nothing but pictures and leave nothing but footprints
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rrrADAM
Dec 30, 2003, 12:51 AM
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To tell you the truth... Out of all the National Parks I have camped at in more than 10 states, JTree is the only one that doesn't charge.
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joshklingbeil
Dec 30, 2003, 3:13 AM
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Whats next like allowing RVs in to Hidden Valley campground.Or building a JTNP general store. I didn't mean it like I think they need more money Quick to build lots of stuff for RVs open sites with power hookups and water. I like the sites the way they are with out all the rangers breathing down my neck abought paying a fee that won't hardly pay for there new unneeded rangers.
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granite_grrl
Dec 30, 2003, 4:04 AM
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I'm headed off on my road trip in a couple of weeks, one of the the destinations I wanted to spend at least a few weeks at was J-tree. Looking at sites on the internet there does seem to be a hubbub about about new fees at J-tree.
So what is the real deal, how much would I expect to pay for camping, park access and my car?
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moabbeth
Dec 30, 2003, 4:24 AM
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In reply to: So what is the real deal, how much would I expect to pay for camping, park access and my car?
Starting Feb. 17th, camping will cost $5 a nite, 2 car maximum per site with a 14 day limit. And it's $10 to enter the park but it's worth it to buy the Golden Eagle pass that'll get you in to ALL national parks for the $50 price of the pass (which is good for a year).
But the $5 fee isn't what's getting a lot of us kinda riled. It's more or less the end of an era feeling and the freedom and good times that came with it. Now there's gonna be a ranger kiosk so they'll have a permanent presence there (i.e. Camp 4), they'll crack down on how many people are staying at a site (lots of times you'll run into a friend at the base of a route and say "hey great to see you again!! if you need a place to sleep, come on over to HVCG #25, I have some extra room and we can squeeze a third car in", etc), you can roll in on a Saturday AM and find people packing up to leave and ask if you can snag their site when they leave and they're like "sure, no prob"...not anymore cause the ranger is gonna assign and track the sites. It'll just be a bit more of a buzzkill. And they're REALLY gonna crack down on the 14 day stays so people that would come and climb for longer than that are gonna have to go way more stealth now to climb in the park.
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esoteric1
Dec 30, 2003, 6:02 AM
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anybody that is for the fees, either has never dirt bagged, or will never dirt bag, I think you cant really get the feel of an area in under 14 days. all its gona do is force us to park outside the park, and move into the outback...dibs on the iron door!
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moabbeth
Dec 30, 2003, 6:16 AM
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In reply to: dibs on the iron door!
no way man, I laid claim to that place back in October!!! If you're nice I'll let you crash inside on a cold night tho :wink: Still gotta find an iron door type area for the cars now that they're gonna be sticklers for the 2 cars per site over in HVCG.
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okc_discgolfer
Dec 30, 2003, 12:28 PM
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bump :D
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troutboy
Dec 30, 2003, 2:33 PM
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In reply to: Accurate fee info snipped... But the $5 fee isn't what's getting a lot of us kinda riled. It's more or less the end of an era feeling and the freedom and good times that came with it. Now there's gonna be a ranger kiosk so they'll have a permanent presence there (i.e. Camp 4), they'll crack down on how many people are staying at a site (lots of times you'll run into a friend at the base of a route and say "hey great to see you again!! if you need a place to sleep, come on over to HVCG #25, I have some extra room and we can squeeze a third car in", etc), you can roll in on a Saturday AM and find people packing up to leave and ask if you can snag their site when they leave and they're like "sure, no prob"...not anymore cause the ranger is gonna assign and track the sites. It'll just be a bit more of a buzzkill. And they're REALLY gonna crack down on the 14 day stays so people that would come and climb for longer than that are gonna have to go way more stealth now to climb in the park.
I don't know where you got this info, but both the NPS and Friends of Joshua Tree web sites have different info.
According to those sources, the sites will not be assigned. You will still choose your site and pay at an "iron ranger" post (you drop your fee into the slot). There are no plans for assigned sites or a kiosk disclosed in any sources as far as I have seen. Perhaps you know something more ?
Yes, there will be foot patrol by rangers, but they are only enforcing existing rules. As far as the camping stay goes, according to the official NPS web site:
There is a 30-day camping limit each year. However, only 14 nights total may occur from October through May.
Following this policy, if one were to come to Josh 7 weekends from October to May and stay 2 nights each, they would surpass the 14-night total stay limit. Seems to me this is basically an unenforcable policy. I wonder if the original intent is not to limit total stay but to limit total stay at one site. Enforcement of this policy as stated would require a database where someone enters all campground stays into the database (in a timely manner) with all persons registered at the campsite, not just the person paying. I think it would also require the NPS maintain all campground stubs under chain of custody to prove any claim they had against someone staying more than 14 days (a computer record, I suspect, would not be sufficient). Any legal types out there with REAL knowledge about this. Something with some facts to back it up (unlike my opinion).
I also suspect it is not legal to limit how much time a person can spend in a National Park. The NPS might be able to support an argument for kicking someone out who had been at one site for 15 days or more. I doubt they would have legal ground to tell someone they have used up their 14 nights of park camping and cannot camp again until after May 30.
I think what we have is a poorly written policy statement. I can see several ways around the 14 day limit even if it were enforced by roving rangers.
The "improvements" we have seen in Josh are what are to be expected when a park unit changes from BLM to NPS. I'm not saying they are good, just what reflects the history of the NPS managment style.
T
Edited to add actual NPS stay policy plus additional thought.
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granite_grrl
Dec 30, 2003, 2:46 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: Accurate fee info snipped... But the $5 fee isn't what's getting a lot of us kinda riled. It's more or less the end of an era feeling and the freedom and good times that came with it. Now there's gonna be a ranger kiosk so they'll have a permanent presence there (i.e. Camp 4), they'll crack down on how many people are staying at a site (lots of times you'll run into a friend at the base of a route and say "hey great to see you again!! if you need a place to sleep, come on over to HVCG #25, I have some extra room and we can squeeze a third car in", etc), you can roll in on a Saturday AM and find people packing up to leave and ask if you can snag their site when they leave and they're like "sure, no prob"...not anymore cause the ranger is gonna assign and track the sites. It'll just be a bit more of a buzzkill. And they're REALLY gonna crack down on the 14 day stays so people that would come and climb for longer than that are gonna have to go way more stealth now to climb in the park. I don't know where you got this info, but both the NPS and Friends of Joshua Tree web sites have different info. According to those sources, the sites will not be assigned. You will still choose your site and pay at an "iron ranger" post (you drop your fee into the slot). There are no plans for assigned sites or a kiosk disclosed in any sources as far as I have seen. Perhaps you know something more ? Yes, there will be foot patrol by rangers, but they are only enforcing existing rules. The 14 day stay is (I believe) per site, not in the park. To stay longer you only need to switch sites or perhaps campgrounds for a day or 2. The "improvements" we have seen in Josh are what are to be expected when a park unit changes from BLM to NPS. I'm not saying they are good, just what reflects the history of the NPS managment style. T
I hope that troutboy is correct, I can cope with the camping fees, but the 14 day limit has me concerned. J-Tree was one of the major areas that I wanted to spend a big chunk of my time at.
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gman
Dec 31, 2003, 1:07 AM
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14 day limit is consecutive days. That really doesn't seem to be that big of a deal to me. I don't get that much vacation time anyway. I know, sucks to be me. But I personally think it's a good rule. The parks are for everyone's enjoyment, not for people to live in. I believe you can stay 14 days, then leave for a day and come back. That is my understanding from many other places I have been to. And as for the cars per campsite, you can always exit the park and leave a car outide and bring your friend/friends back in. :D
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josher
Dec 31, 2003, 1:14 AM
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thats not easy enough for the lazy bone dirtbags :lol:
they want everything free and handed to them
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pancaketom
Dec 31, 2003, 1:19 AM
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The 14 day limit is 14 days total during the winter. They actually enforced this a few years ago when there was a volunteer? couple of old folks who went around every morning writing down license plates. I was there for about a week, then gone for a month and back for another 10 days when they threw me out for being there over 14 days... So really it was 14 days for your vehicle, which when you are travelling with a trailer, really means 14 days. Since then I have lost the trailer and kept my old plates when I moved states, so I had a spare set, but they also haven't been writing them down.
My guess is they will start keeping a closer eye on things now that they are charging.
So, where is the nearest safe place to leave your vehicle while you pack in the maximum (plus a few?) into each HVCG site?
The old freedom is long gone, but what was there last year wasn't bad, and will be seen as the good old days next year.
I am guessing that the park budget will get cut by the amount of revenue this generates or more so that the fees will go up.
It sure was nice while it lasted though.
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troutboy
Dec 31, 2003, 1:30 PM
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In reply to: 14 day limit is consecutive days. That really doesn't seem to be that big of a deal to me. I don't get that much vacation time anyway. I know, sucks to be me. But I personally think it's a good rule. The parks are for everyone's enjoyment, not for people to live in. I believe you can stay 14 days, then leave for a day and come back. That is my understanding from many other places I have been to. And as for the cars per campsite, you can always exit the park and leave a car outide and bring your friend/friends back in. :D
Nope. Read the policy statement from the NPS website and quoted in my previous post. It clearly says 14 days total between October and May and 30 days total per year. There is no mention of 14 consecutive days.
T
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esoteric1
Jan 5, 2004, 3:43 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: dibs on the iron door! no way man, I laid claim to that place back in October!!! If you're nice I'll let you crash inside on a cold night tho :wink: Still gotta find an iron door type area for the cars now that they're gonna be sticklers for the 2 cars per site over in HVCG.
Youll have to pry my cold dead fingers outa that cave beth :wink:
maybee we could share it :lol:
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scottcody
Jan 14, 2004, 7:01 PM
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So I planning my trip out there this spring (What else am I going to do at work)
This is directly off the NPS website
"Hidden Valley
Open
Open All Year
Details
4,200' elevation; 45 sites; no fee; no water"
And from the looks of it not all campsites will be fee sites... I am still looking around trying to get to the bottom this.
I will also need some mid-week partners March 29th thru April 4th.. anyone interested?
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justincoyle
Feb 3, 2004, 3:57 AM
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I was in hidden valley a few weeks ago and the rangers were tracking lic plates on a "voluntary basis" I meet a couple of dirt bags who had been there for about a month and were just moving their cars in the morning before the rangers came by.
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phugganut
Feb 3, 2004, 4:03 AM
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I think it stinks. I already pay for camping at National Parks. It's called taxes!
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moabbeth
Feb 3, 2004, 4:15 AM
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In reply to: I think it stinks. I already pay for camping at National Parks. It's called taxes!
And don't forget the fee when you enter the park in the first place.
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tahquitztwo
Feb 3, 2004, 6:58 AM
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Yeah...I pay taxes too, however it's not really used for the areas I'd like to see money spent (i.e. the parks, etc.) rather for boondoggles out in foreign places like Iraq, etc.
Pay the fee you whiners.....help keep our parks useful....or would you rather they be shut down for lack of funds. And, as climbers, try to keep things on the up and up....don't be a dirtbag and ruin it for everyone because you don't like the changes. :evil:
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sandbag
Feb 4, 2004, 12:37 AM
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In reply to: I think it stinks. I already pay for camping at National Parks. It's called taxes!
You dont have to pay those taxes. Its voluntary. So is the fee at the entrance. You can always homestead a smal spot in a remote part of the parks of your choice and just live there in abstentia.
Part of living in a society involves participation in common goals and support of those goals. Im not going to go into a distended diatribe on the value of taxes vs the evil the monies are spent on either. If you dont like it, build a group of people that can get others elected. Its a representative govt(well, thats another issue,) at the level of the Senate/House and they make the decisions. Make Ayn Rand proud and dont try to make a monumental change in a losign battle, make a small change that may effect and precipitate a motion to change many over time.
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sandbag
Feb 4, 2004, 12:37 AM
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In reply to: I think it stinks. I already pay for camping at National Parks. It's called taxes!
You dont have to pay those taxes. Its voluntary. So is the fee at the entrance. You can always homestead a small spot in a remote part of the parks of your choice and just live there in abstentia.
Part of living in a society involves participation in common goals and support of those goals. Im not going to go into a distended diatribe on the value of taxes vs the evil the monies are spent on either. If you dont like it, build a group of people that can get others elected. Its a representative govt(well, thats another issue,) at the level of the Senate/House and they make the decisions. Make Ayn Rand proud and dont try to make a monumental change in a losing battle, make a small change that may effect and precipitate a motion to change many over time.
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