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tonithegreat
Jan 8, 2004, 8:27 PM
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So, I am trying to build up some better cardio fitness by running for a relatively short time every weekday, in addition to climbing 3 days a week, but my knees are killing me. On my first week in the program, I did a mile and a half every day with no negative side effects. This week, I'm feeling good about my running times, but my knees are in some real pain. I run on sidewalks in my neighborhood.
Any chance that my knees'll strengthen up/toughen up and stop hurting, or do you think I need to switch to a different running surface or cardio activity before I do damage to myself? Or maybe use a knee brace?
Toni
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climbingspaz
Jan 8, 2004, 8:37 PM
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where do your knees hurt ? it could be IT band issues.
i used to run on concrete, had no pain until i hit the 8 mile mark in a run. the thing is knees are really sensitive when you up mileage quickly without building up endurance.
i've switched to running on treadmills (boring yes, but effective in controlling pace and distance accurately, plus in chicago who wants to run outside in the winter?) and took some time off after my knees hurt to start over and rebuild endurance properly.
hope this helps.
CF
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mandrake
Jan 8, 2004, 8:49 PM
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I agree with climbingspaz about the effects of increasing mileage.
To add to that, check the recommendations on Runnersworld.com. If there's a specialty running shop near you, they can offer advice (or a doctor, of course, if it's gotten to that point).
What's worked for me when my knees were giving me pain: I took some time off running and crosstrained on an exercise bike. Then when I came back to running, I stretched out thoroughly immediately after running (minimum of 15 mins) then iced whatever hurt for 15 minutes. I'm still having to be a bit careful, but other more experienced runners tell me that after you stabilize mileage and run for a bit, the injuries and aches and pains tail off.
Also, if you're nearing 400 miles on your shoes, they may be due for replacement. Plus if you can find a softer surface than the sidewalk (a track, a dirt path), that might help. Good luck.
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gbschmitt
Jan 8, 2004, 8:50 PM
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Get some good running shoes that will absorb the shocks and quit running on hard surfaces like concrete and asphalt. Find a trail in the woods, you will discover that running on natural soil is much more forgiving to your knees, hips, and lower back.
G-Man
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t-nutz
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Jan 8, 2004, 8:52 PM
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I don't know if you are like me but I am 6 ft tall and running on hard surfaces makes my knees hurt. What works best for me is to run on dirt or grass. I also recommend you look at the shoes that you are wearing. I know running on a old pair of shoes can make your knees hurt.
i have tried to use treadmills but get bored quickly but if you can hang more power to you. If you use a treadmill i would recommend that you use one that has the built in shocks that help reduce impact force.
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iamthewallress
Jan 8, 2004, 8:55 PM
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Concrete sidewalks are the hardest running surface that you could pick. If you run on the tarred roads, you'll be better off, and well packed dirt better still. Treadmills and tracks are boring, but knee-friendlier options. When I have to resort to the treadmill, I usually just try to see how fast I can bang out a mile and then move on to other machines. This might not be great for a bad knee though. Go easy on the downhills, perhaps walking them as you build up your tolerance.
I experienced the same problem when I first started running. I was overzealous about increasing my mileage, and I ended up getting stress fractures in my feet as well as knee problems. Ramping up mileage slowly, getting off the sidewalks completely and onto dirt when possible, and changing my shoes all helped.
I had ACL surgery last year (unrelated to running), and can now run a few times a week on dirt comfortably. When I was home for the holidays I ran the roads and sidewalks and was in pain after a week. YMMV
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catra
Jan 8, 2004, 8:59 PM
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Get off the road and onto the trails...
You need to make sure you have good pair of shoes.
Shoes can make a big difference...
If you have good shoes, and you run on trails, and you still have pain for a week, I would go see a doctor.
You might have injured yourself and not even no it...
Cheers,
Catra
http://www.rocknrun.net
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gregtrammell
Jan 8, 2004, 9:17 PM
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I would deffinently try trail running. It's much easier on the knees, and it gives you a chance to be away from it all. I have found it somewhat addictive though. Just watch for twisted ankles.
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sharmastyle
Jan 8, 2004, 9:20 PM
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Strange, but I thought this was a climbing forum :?
Check out the running webpages out there, you'll get a hell of alot more help, and the rest of us can keep reading about vertical things.
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iamthewallress
Jan 8, 2004, 9:28 PM
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In reply to: Strange, but I thought this was a climbing forum :? Check out the running webpages out there, you'll get a hell of alot more help, and the rest of us can keep reading about vertical things.
I train for climbing by running. For big back country projects it's infinately more helpful than say campus training, or those hand-opener-muscle-trainers that they sell at the climbing shops. Slaughtering my knees on the downhills is also a huge climbing issue for me. Running training helps me to avoid that.
Sharmastyle...(I'm embarassed for you unless your name really is sharma, btw) live a few more years and venture further away from your car and it might make sense.
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tweek
Jan 8, 2004, 9:28 PM
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Wouldn't it be nice if you could say.... I was trying to do a drop knee on a climb and my knee hurt. What should I do? And everyone responded you should buy new shoes.
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charley
Jan 8, 2004, 9:33 PM
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I don't recomend starting a running program with running every day. Check out runners world. Theyb have beginners progams on their site.
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bnjohns
Jan 8, 2004, 10:09 PM
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Just to reiterate and clarify what some people have been saying, when we say get a "good pair of shoes", that means get a pair of shoes that is good for you. You can have the sweetest pair of $150 shoes or whatever, and they can still not be right for your feet. There are some running specialty stores that'll spend some time with you trying to figure out which shoes are the best for you. In my experience, I've had to use a bit of trial and error.
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whiteflash
Jan 8, 2004, 10:13 PM
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Sounds like you went up too fast too soon. Most running training is going to reccomend you increase mileage and speed of mileage only every three weeks. ex(for beginners): 30min 3x week for three weeks, 35min 4x week next 3 weeks. I know your going to feel like going faster when you first begin, and longer, but negative results will occur. For sure GET OFF the concrete, nothing is worse. Treadmills arn't much better. Trails/mondo are the best ways to go. I used to go upto 120mi/week when training in college and 90% of that was on trails and track, it's the only way to go if you want no injuries. Get better slowly is the best way to go.
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runningclimber
Jan 8, 2004, 10:18 PM
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As others have said, shoes can be *very* important in preventing and minimizing injury. Not only should you have "good" running shoes, but good shoes for *your* feet and running style. Do you overpronate or underpronate? Heel strike or midfoot strike? Is your foot arched/curved or flat/straight? Are you a heavier or lighter runner? All of these things can have a big affect on how your body responds to the stress of running.
Go to a specialty running store and get fitted. A good fitter will have you try on several pairs of shoes and watch your body as you run in them. Or, if you don't want to spend that kind of time/money, check out Runner's World's annual shoe guide. They generally give pretty solid advice when it comes to fit (as well as value).
Good luck!
~Shelby
(Runner of several years and climber of several months. :))
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buttets
Jan 8, 2004, 10:42 PM
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Well, everyone has covered it all! Why don't you ride a bike? Running effects the entire body, tiring the upper body for climbing. Where biking really works the lungs does not tire the upper body much and is almost a non-weight bearing activity. Besides you go farther and see a whole lot more.........
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elmayimbe
Jan 8, 2004, 11:26 PM
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I've been running pretty solid for a couple years now. I think most everything that's been posted is pretty sound advice. I experienced quite a bit of knee pain and other little injuries during my 1st year - I think due to hard surfaces (esp. sidewalk) and lack of built-up endurance. After running extensively on trails then being forced back pavement (snow), I've been fine. In addition to being softer, I think the surface variance of trails does a lot for strengthening to prevent injuries.
If softer surfaces aren't currently an option, back off/rest when experiencing pain & mix in running on treadmills.
I strongly agree with "getting right shoe" comments. As an overpronater, all my regular shoes wore out quickly and very unevenly, but alas, good stability shoes wear evenly.
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heelhooker
Jan 9, 2004, 12:39 AM
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I'm gonna play quack here also and suggest stretching more. I've had various types of knee pain caused by muscle imbalance. Most of my problems have been addressed by quad stretches, but i've stretched my way out of ITB.
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gbschmitt
Jan 9, 2004, 1:46 PM
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In reply to: Here is the "thing" with cycling. According to multiple research texts I have read, cycling is roughly 1/4 what running is, so you'd need a lot more time to ride than run.
(Yes it's a climbing Forum but I think most climbers pursue some form of aerobic conditioning, therefore I consider such discussion legitimate)
It's true that 1 mile of running equals 4-5 miles of cycling but think about the speed difference. You run maybe 6 mph on average, but cycle 12-15 mph on average if you ride recreational or 18-20 mph if you race. So you might use maximally double the time you spent running to get an equivalent workout. If you have bad knees it may well be worth the extra time because cycling is easier on your knees. However, the same rules apply: You need equipment that fits you, and it must be adjusted properly. For example, the position of the cleats on your shoes or saddle height may seem trivial but if not set just the right way, it may cause you knee problems as well. Finding the right adjustment takes some tinkering and comes with experience. In addition, moderate distances/times to start with and slow increases apply to cycling as well (personal experience: my knees hurt pretty bad riding a century after having been off the bike for several months).
Another alternative is swimming, a great all-body conditioning workout and probably the most joint-friendly.
G-Man
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betadog
Jan 9, 2004, 6:49 PM
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The body really isn't made for running. Or better yet your knees are not really made to absorb the amount of punishment that running causes. Most doctors will tell you that the impact alone can wear down your cartilage within the knee and cause chronic damage. Stretching helps but it really doesn't do anything to strenthen the knees. When I hyperextended mine (pretty bad) the orthepedic gave me excercises to do that helped alot. One of which is working out with weights but doing one leg extensions with low weights/lots of reps. That one helped quite a bit to strenthen the ligaments around the knee and giving it more stability. The other is to sit down on the ground or floor (legs out straight) and take a towel, put it over the ball of your feet and pull back on it while trying to push your foot forward. This will strenthen the ankles which in return assists the knee in absorbing impact.
Strongly recommend not using knee braces!! Over time your legs become dependent on them and they actually progress the weakening of the knees. God my parents would be proud that 5 1/2 year undergrad degree finally came in handy!!!
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runningclimber
Jan 9, 2004, 7:15 PM
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In reply to: The body really isn't made for running. Or better yet your knees are not really made to absorb the amount of punishment that running causes.
You're right that alot of people who run end up having knee problems, but I don't think it's an issue of limited capability on the part of the human body. Most people who run, especially when they are just starting out, have terrible running form. This can be a result of several things, including ill-fitting shoes, limited flexibility, and muscle imbalances. Many of the runners on my college team would have pretty bad knee problems when they entered. But our coach had an extensive weight training program that included very targeted leg work (often neglected by runners) to correct the common problem of stronger quads than hamstrings and other imbalances. There was not one person the entire time I was there that had to quit the team because of chronic injury.
I know most recreational runners are not gonna go spend alot of time on a running-oriented weight training program, but it helps to keep these things in mind if you get stuck with a chronic injury. Many people think they have "bad knees," but the problem is often fixable if you take the right steps.
As a side note, I know my user name reveals me as obviously biased here, but I think that running is excellent training for climbing. Not only physically, but mentally as well. The only thing to watch out for is that if you don't make an effort to stretch, running can sometimes diminish flexibility and that clearly is not helpful on the rock. :)
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sharmastyle
Jan 10, 2004, 6:04 PM
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In reply to: Sharmastyle...live a few more years and venture further away from your car and it might make sense.
Interesting how you assume I only know about climbing. I have been running for 7 years now and have run division 1 cross country and track. I wasn't trying to attack you, but it would be much more worthwhile if you sought help on a running website since your injury is running related, and people on those sites would be of much more help. Even better go see a sports doctor...I fought through many running related injuries, and internet opinions aren't going to fix your knee.
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tonithegreat
Jan 12, 2004, 8:13 PM
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Dude, Sharmastyle, _I_ didn't assume anything about you (though I did think it pretty silly that you were annoyed by someone soliciting running advice here, then read the forum about it and posted in it anyway- you could have just ignored. . .) that was a different person posting from the one with the original question.
Everyone else, thanks for all the advice. I guess I'm going to check out some more advice on running websites and probably buy some new shoes. I am still waiting for the pain to completely diminish and the knees to finish healing before I restart a running program, but it sounds like I'll probably also switch to trails and maybe fewer days per week to start. There are some great trails for running on my route to and from work, and I look forward to using them.
Hopefully if I take it easier, I will be able to stick with running for aerobics. I can't really afford to start cycling, and it appeals less to me anyway. If not, swimming seems like a good option too, if I can find a decent pool that I can afford.
I think that another part of my problem is that while I'm not particularly heavy for my height, I am a really big person, especially for a woman. I'm 6'5" and 180 lbs. I haven't run seriously since I was a kid and 30-40 lbs lighter, so I guess that my knees might need a longer start up period to adjust to all that weight.
Thanks!
Toni
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dynoguy
Jan 12, 2004, 9:14 PM
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First off, if you are only trying to attain cardiovascular fitness than STOP RUNNING. I strongly reccomend buying a bike and working out on that. Knee goes along with running like flappers with climbing. Trust me, running is not as healthy as some say.
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psychopsilocybin
Jan 12, 2004, 9:15 PM
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i try to avoid sidewalks when i can so i run on the road. Asphalt is softer then cement.
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