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fiend
Jan 13, 2004, 5:40 PM
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In reply to: I now pose that question to you. If you think you can add substance to the magazines, why aren't you submitting worthy articles?? Many magazines will take repetitious and bad writing by well known climbers/writers over some nobody writing about his average adventures. I have to run to work, but anyone have a copy of the Writer's Handbook handy? I'd like to see stats on R&I and Climbing.
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epic_ed
Jan 13, 2004, 5:59 PM
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That's my perception, too. I know of at least one person who has submitted an article and was rejected. One of the faults I think both magazines have is that they don't target the "average" climber very well, and don't deem their adventures worthy of publication. I would rather read a well written story about moderate climbing than rambling nonsense from an accomplished climber about some rad climbs that are beyond the limits in difficulty of anything I'll ever dream of climbing (ie., Cedar Wright's piece in Climbing last month). I've never submitted anything because I don't think I can produce an article worth publishing. That coming from a guy who earned a relatively worthless "Professional Writer's Certificate" back in my undergrad days. But as long as R&I limits their pool of writers to only "elite" and well respected, accomplished climbers they are going to have a hard time finding quality submissions. I mean, how many hardcore, accomplished climbers are out there who have any sort of background in writing? Not to say there aren't some prolific exceptions, but as a rule, you're more likely to find a good writer in the average Joe weekend warrior than in the group of experts they limit themselves to currently. Ed
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hardmanknott
Jan 13, 2004, 5:59 PM
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In reply to: It's all good and fine not to like my writing, but mentioning my name and Shania Twain's in the same breath? Harsh, very harsh. Hey, weren't you the one who wrote the article a few years back called How To Climb 5.14--replete with a few choice excuses to use when not sending? That was a riot. And more recently, there was the article on the subject of "Sub-Men". If you ever wanted to reprise that one, you'd find lots and lots of hero-worshipers around here from which to glean first-hand info... Hardman Knott
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brianinslc
Jan 13, 2004, 6:22 PM
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In reply to: Matt, Sorry, it wasn't a dig at you, although, for the most part I don't like your stuff....it's a matter of taste (I don't like Shania Twain, either). Well, that pretty much shoots your credability...ha ha...
In reply to: Oh, and Okinawatricam....check out Climbing #185, page 124. It's been a while but I think I'll sharpen up the pen. Writin' well is tough...you just can't say, because you don't like the current national book award winner, you'll just write your own. Easy to be a critic...hence...some mindless first impressions... Just got my copy in the mail...a quick browse thru last night... AO's article on the tahquitz accident was good. Well written (should we expect any less?) and a hard to cover sensitive subject. Even gave some props to JL and this site. Toughie. Given the cover shot and huge paren's over the cover shot, the article fell a tad short for me in the "this is really important" department. I guess the whole theme of this mag, with panic attacks, pro pulling on veteran leaders, and this accident, was kinda dark and gloomy (cover shot, a bit ominous). And that's...ok. Might not do as well on the rack at the airport, though, as folks reach for the beach instead (cover of Outside)... Enjoyed the testing stuff by DR etc. I think good to emphasize safety and get some data to back it up. Kudos and thanks. JW's rehash of his Cassin trip was interesting...especially for readers (and coveters) of his fine tome, High Alaska. Had heard tell of the personality issues (thru a mutual acquantance). Article was good, but maybe could have been great. Given his writing, maybe I had higher hopes for a real jewel of a piece. Some insight into where all that discension was coming from. Geez, limited pictures. More more more. We're in the thick of ice season, how 'bout some more mixed or ice shots, or escape to the beach climbing shots? Some inversion therapy would be nice. What else...hmmm....humor in the back was good, but, font size and color made it kinda hard to read...but...pretty hilarious stuff...good break from the more serious content. Donini profile was good, but, jeez, not a very flattering picture. Feller has a bit more tan than that. A few more pages and a bit more history. A pic of him hikin' an indian creek crack would be nice. Denali info was good and timing was good, as folks thinkin' about headin' up there should be gettin' their permit squared away pretty soon. A bit of spray/hype on touching the void. Wonder what up between the lads. Sorta dovetailed in with JW's article. Too much teaser, though. A more in depth article on climbing dynamics between partners would be good. Donini's wisdom concerning this was timely too. Tips section was crowded with maybe too much for one page. A few more diagrams, sketches. Breaking news was a bit sluggish. Maybe some local news from a local scene would be nice. Geez, I'm bettin' there's folks climbing this winter, and right here in the US. FWIW... Brian in SLC
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pbjosh
Jan 13, 2004, 6:26 PM
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I thought the latest issue brought sucking to an all new level and agree that the new format is so bad I didn't even bother to take the time to try to figure out what was an article and what was a story. And ONE photo in the photo gallery? The last damn reason to even open the piece of sh!t is apparently being phased out...
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phaedrus
Jan 13, 2004, 6:52 PM
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On the up side, I like the addition of the Climb Safe column. On the down side, the Red Chili as HAS to be the STUPIDEST climbing ad I have EVER seen! What the hell was THAT?? Looks like it was put together by some slick Madison Avenue exec, not a climber. Get rid of it. I do agree that some focus on maybe the "up and coming" in climbing instead of the Sharmas, Caldwells, etc., would be good. I do like to hear what the uber-elite is doing, yeah, but it'd be nice to know what the rest of us mortals are up to also. $.02... cha-ching.
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traddad
Jan 13, 2004, 6:57 PM
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OK, since I originated this thread, I can call foul on myself. It’s easy (and yet, somehow satisfying!) to slag writers/publications when they don’t live up to your standard of “art”. I’m a snob, I’ll admit it. I trashed R&I for not living up to the gold standard every issue (especially that last one, Pew!). What I neglected to say is that I own every R&I from the last seven or so years and will continue to buy them. As it has been said before, publishing is a business. What hasn’t been said is that, to a certain extent, so is art. Look at Clint Eastwood. He makes five or six kill ‘em and count ‘em movies to make dosh and then makes an “Unforgiven” or a “Mystic River”. We slag him (then duck) for the bad movies and praise him for the good, all the while not considering that the man has to make the mortgage payment on his 30 room seaside mansion in Carmel…and the Hummer….and the little place in Provence. As they say, good art won’t match your sofa….but the vast majority of the public is more interested in finding that certain something that goes with pink paisley. This is not to say that there isn’t room for improvement at R&I, or that they couldn’t do a better job of melding art and commerce, it’s just that if the bills are paid, I now EXPECT some future issue to contain a “Mystic River”......of course I'll probably hate it :roll: There's no accounting for taste.
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rvega
Jan 13, 2004, 6:59 PM
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In reply to: On the up side, I like the addition of the Climb Safe column. On the down side, the Red Chili as HAS to be the STUPIDEST climbing ad I have EVER seen! What the hell was THAT?? Looks like it was put together by some slick Madison Avenue exec, not a climber. Get rid of it. I like those Red Chili ads, seriously. I think they are clever and different than your typical climbing shoe advertisement. Plus the boys in them are cute! Whoo hoo!
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deafears
Jan 13, 2004, 7:12 PM
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Why is it that there are posts like this about R&I and Climbing, but not Alpinist? "I would rather read a well written story about moderate climbing than rambling nonsense from an accomplished climber about some rad climbs that are beyond the limits in difficulty of anything I'll ever dream of climbing." Mmmm. "Rambling nonsense from accomplished climbers" on the topic of routes "beyond the limits of difficulty of anything I'll ever climb." Isn't that Alpinist's stock and trade?
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brianinslc
Jan 13, 2004, 7:52 PM
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In reply to: Why is it that there are posts like this about R&I and Climbing, but not Alpinist? Errr...ahhh...maybe 'cause this is the "rock and ice" magazine forum?
In reply to: Mmmm. "Rambling nonsense from accomplished climbers" on the topic of routes "beyond the limits of difficulty of anything I'll ever climb." Isn't that Alpinist's stock and trade? Hmmm. Maybe it ain't so much rambling and not so much nonsense. Slacklines not withstanding... Seems like more content, mo beta pics, and its a niche magazine, not a general catch all. Not that it couldn't be picked apart, perhaps... Brian in SLC
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neuroshock
Jan 13, 2004, 8:19 PM
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well, I received mine in the mail last night (yeah, I locked myself into a subscription :-)) and at first glance, I thought that I had received an issue of Outside magazine. Similar cover layout, article layout, etc.... IMO, of the 3 formats of R&I that I've seen, I like the 2nd one (a couple of issues ago) the most. As for Alpinist, it's definitely a niche publication. How many boulderers do you see looking over the photos of snow caves 'n such? Though it also has advertising, I find their placement to be less intrusive. Their articles are also well written and have more substance...but, on the other hand, that may be in part to the fact that they only have 4 issues a year to fill.
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climbsomething
Jan 13, 2004, 10:46 PM
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In reply to: A few years ago I was bouldering at Stony Point when I heard a loud mouth guy complaining that the climbing rags had no good articles. HE complained about the lack of cutting edge news, and the need for better stories. So I asked him: Have you ever submitted something to those Magazines?? I now pose that question to you. If you think you can add substance to the magazines, why aren't you submitting worthy articles?? Personally, I like reading those "RAGS," I even read some foreign one too. R&I and Climbing Keep up the good work. One day I may submit something too. Yes, I do submit to magazines. Photos, story ideas, but so far they haven't been deemed, to use your word, "worthy." They get rejected wit'a quickness, or simply ignored. I don't need to toot my own horn, but I know what a focus ring and a shift key are, and then some. But I have to keep trying. And I will. tricam, you sound a bit idealistic, and yes, I admit, I am a bit of a cynic. But it's not even close to the truth that if you build it, the editors will come. If you want to make the magazines better, it takes more than a passing talent. Whatever that something is, I apparently don't have it yet and I don't even know what it is. Now, if I may add my own chuff re: this month's issue. The writing was some of the best I'd seen in a long time. I was bored outta my skull with the heavy alpine/ice focus, but it is Rock and ICE and I hear not everybody lives in southern Arizona :P I can forgive that. Anyway, Samet's article and the Tahquitz article were-OH MY GOODNISH!- actually resembling JOURNALISM. You know, research, quotes, all that heady stuff, instead of the mental masturbation of some matinee idol's diary. (I slacklined! I meditated! I got married! Oh joy, oh rapture!) But, yes, the design was busy. It was dizzying- not quite the kind of seizure I might get while eating Pop Rocks and watching Pokemon, but it was too frenetic for my taste. The Exposed section was also lacking. One photo of Tommy Caldwell, and a somewhat confusing Canadian ice fest layout- and what, like you need a certain kind of photographer to take a photo of a cute puppy or boots in the snow? I did, however, like the concept of extended cuts. It's easy to slag a publication, of course it is. But I figure it's a fairly new staff (well, many came from Climbing, but a new grouping) and they're experimenting. So while I am grateful that R&I didn't insult my intelligence this issue, the aesthetics need not be sacrificed. Equal parts quality writing and eye candy. But at least they're trying... I'll keep reading, and resisting the urge to join the vocal "Alpinist is so kewl" camp.
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iamthewallress
Jan 13, 2004, 11:01 PM
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Keep sumbitting your stuff, Hillary. I'd buy a whole book of it.
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brutusofwyde
Jan 14, 2004, 7:01 PM
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In reply to: I now pose that question to you. If you think you can add substance to the magazines, why aren't you submitting worthy articles?? I have, numerous times. I don't bother anymore. Brutus of Wyde Old Climbers' Home Oakland, California
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epic_ed
Jan 14, 2004, 9:59 PM
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In reply to: Why is it that there are posts like this about R&I and Climbing, but not Alpinist? "I would rather read a well written story about moderate climbing than rambling nonsense from an accomplished climber about some rad climbs that are beyond the limits in difficulty of anything I'll ever dream of climbing." Mmmm. "Rambling nonsense from accomplished climbers" on the topic of routes "beyond the limits of difficulty of anything I'll ever climb." Isn't that Alpinist's stock and trade? The best of both worlds is a well written article, first hand account, from someone who is pushing their limits. There you have Alpinist in a nutshell. My point -- it's hard to find hardcore climbers who write well, but I'm eternally grateful when they do. And if Brutus can't get published, what kind of myopia do you think the editors of the popular rags are dealing with? It must be terrible to not be able to see a good story when it bites you in the package. Ed
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fitzontherocks
Jan 27, 2004, 10:43 PM
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OK, here's my a**hole. I mean OPINION. Design: I like in. Yes, it did remind me of Outside mag. And that's not a bad thing. Outside has won eight National Magazine Awards from the MPA. In my mind, the new design makes the pub look more professional, more credible, instead of a low-end DIY'er kind of rag. Our sport needs that. Content: I'm mixed. Someone already mentioned the "if it bleeds, it leads" credo. Fact is, I was very interested to read about the Tahquitz tragedy (after first reading about it on this site!). I agree Caldwell's Zodiac deserved more ink, but also agree that the Beth and Tommy show gets plenty of ink as it is. In general, I'd like to see any and all climbing pubs cover sub- 5.11 climbing more. The 2 or 3 articles I've read so far could have been more in-depth. I still think there's not a huge difference between R&I and Climbing. I'll have to find a copy of Alpinist to compare. Advertising: I work for an ad agency trying to come up with great ad ideas, so I'm simultaneously more tolerant and more critical of the ads. In general, I think the level of the creative was ok. I saw some good ones and some ok ones. I was pleased NOT to see so many dinky, crappy little black and white ads like you used to see in the back of comic books. Delivery: I just got my March issue today (1.27.04). Was everybody else's so late?
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roughster
Jan 27, 2004, 10:47 PM
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I kinf od liked the new format, it will just take a bit to get used to. I agree with the MORE GALLERY sentiment expressed earlier. Climbing Magazines are like Climbers Playboy. We all claim to read it for the articles, but we really just look at the pictures :lol:
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lordjim
Jan 27, 2004, 10:53 PM
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In reply to: Delivery: I just got my March issue today (1.27.04). Was everybody else's so late? I'll ditto that one. Mine came in the mail yesterday. After seeing the issue at the news stands I was about 4 hours away from call them and making a few polite inquiries. M
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vulgarian
Jan 28, 2004, 12:00 AM
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I love this issue. It is close to what I see in all media in the Great United States of "Generica". I haven't subscribed to either of those rags for years although I was a regular at one time for many years. Even after I had decided that the either publication wasn't serving me anymore, I held on, like to a bad relationship, in denial about the fact that they were headed south. The writing in these are basically the level of "Readers Digest". I won't waste time expounding on the either magazines shortcomings. They are a business, like McDonalds, serving those too lazy to inquire about a different way to sate their appetite. As far as my own choices. I don't even pick up the old issues my gym used to put out for free with the names sliced off. I leave them for the mom's and grandma's who bring the kids to the gym for birthday parties. Alpinist gets my money.
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jer
Jan 28, 2004, 12:02 AM
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In reply to: OK, here's my a**hole. I mean OPINION. Design: I like in. Yes, it did remind me of Outside mag. And that's not a bad thing. Outside has won eight National Magazine Awards from the MPA. In my mind, the new design makes the pub look more professional, more credible, instead of a low-end DIY'er kind of rag. Our sport needs that. Good eye, Fitz. Yes it does look more professional. Yes it does look more credible. New AD Marshall is doing a fantastic job as far as I'm concerned. And why does it remind you of Outside? Guess where Marshall came from? Go ahead, take a guess. I'm psyched on the new look. I can't believe all the sobbing on here...magazine's evolve with their art directors. Embrace and support it or lose it. Jer p.s. a comment on the Red Chili ads...R&I doesn't design the ads, the companies do. At first I found them obnoxious, but generally I support ANYONE trying to do something new, creative and unseen in the climbing world. I may not agree with everything someone like Jason Kehl does, but I support variety and uniqueness among the ranks. If we all thought the same, looked the same, climbed the same, what a boring little sub-culture this would be...
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unabonger
Jan 30, 2004, 7:06 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: I now pose that question to you. If you think you can add substance to the magazines, why aren't you submitting worthy articles?? I have, numerous times. I don't bother anymore. Brutus of Wyde Old Climbers' Home Oakland, California Don't know how you've tried to submit, but I hear that having some sort of relationship with an editor or writer there will help your chances. I've run across your ramblings before, sir, and don't doubt the quality of your stuff is more than adequate to make the grade--perhaps it didn't fit the master plan for their upcoming issues. It's their, and our, loss. The ScribnerBonger
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vulgarian
Jan 30, 2004, 9:23 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: I now pose that question to you. If you think you can add substance to the magazines, why aren't you submitting worthy articles?? I have, numerous times. I don't bother anymore. Brutus of Wyde Old Climbers' Home Oakland, California Don't know how you've tried to submit, but I hear that having some sort of relationship with an editor or writer there will help your chances. I've run across your ramblings before, sir, and don't doubt the quality of your stuff is more than adequate to make the grade--perhaps it didn't fit the master plan for their upcoming issues. It's their, and our, loss. The ScribnerBonger I have to second that opinion. The Wyde one does seem to capture the essence of the climbering sub-culture and more often than not with a great deal of humor. The gift of story telling is a rare one indeed and the gift resides in within the Wyde. Too bad. Maybe they're jeolous of real talent. Or maybe the prose is too cutting edge for a McMagazine.
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timstich
Jan 31, 2004, 2:50 PM
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In reply to: ALPINIST 'nuf said The Alpinist is absolutely wonderful to read. It will be cherished long after it's pages are turned. And the more people that subscribe, the lower the price will eventually go. Great cartoons, too. They reminded me of the ones in the New Yorker: subtle and atmospheric. That was the art direction apparantly. Heh.
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timstich
Jan 31, 2004, 2:55 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: I now pose that question to you. If you think you can add substance to the magazines, why aren't you submitting worthy articles?? I have, numerous times. I don't bother anymore. Brutus of Wyde Old Climbers' Home Oakland, California Don't know how you've tried to submit, but I hear that having some sort of relationship with an editor or writer there will help your chances. I've run across your ramblings before, sir, and don't doubt the quality of your stuff is more than adequate to make the grade--perhaps it didn't fit the master plan for their upcoming issues. It's their, and our, loss. The ScribnerBonger I have to second that opinion. The Wyde one does seem to capture the essence of the climbering sub-culture and more often than not with a great deal of humor. The gift of story telling is a rare one indeed and the gift resides in within the Wyde. Too bad. Maybe they're jeolous of real talent. Or maybe the prose is too cutting edge for a McMagazine. The current format of Climbing and R & I does not lend itself well to the layered, painstakingly crafted stories like Brutus and Dingus write. They therefore have no reason to submit articles to these magazines and the mags in turn have nothing to offer. The epics issues are the only ones that run good stories. On the other hand, Alpinist would be a good place. You should at least try again, Brutus. It would be very cool for the rest of us.
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jds100
Feb 2, 2004, 5:37 PM
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I agree that Alpinist is a different animal than the more populist-oriented Climbing and Rock-n-Ice. Alpinist is also funded significantly differently than the two more mainstream mags, and the product is able to reflect a different objective that can't be matched by magazines whose existence is absolutely dependent on commercial success. Climbing and Rock-n-Ice have both gone through numerous -seems like never-ending- changes in format and stated editorial objectives. My guess is that unless a publisher wants to take 'em on as a loss leader or a charity venture, they will continue to search for a more commercially viable format and style, and they will both continue to NOT find a generally wider audience. Climbing, in all its permutations, is a narrow niche activity, in which most participants have a relatively short period of dedicated interest. Outside Magazine recognizes that it needs to appeal to a wider audience of niche participants/armchair devotees, so it contains few actual articles, preferring instead short pithy sidebar-style pieces with phrases instead of sentences, and attached to a lot of colorful flashy illustration. As has been said: "Sound familiar?" While the new Rock-n-Ice Art Director may have been brought on board to try to increase success of the magazine, apparently by somehow appealing to more non-climbers, his work might end up alienating dedicated climbers. But, hey, maybe the marketing researchers have discovered that the number of long-term subscription holders is small, and replaceable by more short-term subscription buyers, and by more off-the-stand buyers, thus more flash and fluff, and less substance. I suspect that somebody has done some research on demographics for potential buyers of these magazines, and I doubt that the average climber comes out looking very promising as a target market. There's likely quite of bit of pressure to show significant increases in sales revenue as well as advertising revenue, and appealing only to the climbing community probably isn't going to do that. I think that has an effect on the budget that these folks have to work with, as well, so I don't expect to see much in the way of fine literary accomplishments. Just as a movie producer may be more concerned about the names of the actors on the marquee rather than the quality of the material, I suspect that these magazine editors give strong consideration to being able to publish recognizable names in the magazines and on the covers. And, yes, I also think it's very likely that being friends with the people running the show probably helps. I also doubt that reader opinions are going to have much sway with what is decided about the direction for these mags, whether they go through the motions of ostensibly asking for them or not. Until subscribers learn how to run a profitable micro-niche magazine, the marketing professionals who work for the publishing companies will continue to have more influence. The purpose of Climbing and Rock-n-Ice is to make a profitable living for the people who work there and the people who have money in it, not some more high-minded purpose of serving the "climbing community". If they could do both, great. But, if there's a choice -and there is- then they're ultimately going to do what's good for the bank account.
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