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thehardnailer
Oct 7, 2003, 10:04 PM
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I was just up in Rock Canyon, above Provo, and you aren't going to believe this but there's a track-ho up there removing rock from the base/face of the Black Rose on the south side of the canyon and from the base/face of the Job site on the north side! The climbs affected are as follows: on the Black Rose, Yuji Feet 11c, Black Rose 10(r), a Rose is a Rose 5.10, Pink Canoe 10a, Fat Hippos 12a, and Tip a Canoe5.6, On the Jobsite wall, The Right Aspect 11d, Reaching for the Capillary 12b, Ditch Digger 12b, Mucker 13a, Roughneck 12a, and several proj.'s. I have heard that the land in the mouth of Rock Canyon is privately owned, and I'm trying to find out by who and what their plan is, is this an access fund issue? On A "Lighter" note, someone has taken it upon themselves to dis-able the track-ho by smashing out it's windows (I hope they remembered to put sand in the hydraulic and fuel tanks?) And while I don't normally advocate this ELF style attack, I also don't remember any public hearing concerning this heavy earth work in Rock Canyon! Several of these climbs are classic in that they are from the 70's (and are pretty darn good) and there loss would be felt by the climbing community. Any info as to who owns this land would be a welcome help. T.B.
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roughster
Oct 7, 2003, 10:08 PM
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that does not sound good :(
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roughster
Oct 7, 2003, 10:08 PM
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roughster moved this thread from Regional Discussions to Access Issues & Closures.
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curt
Oct 7, 2003, 11:11 PM
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In reply to: A "Lighter" note, someone has taken it upon themselves to dis-able the track-ho by smashing out it's windows (I hope they remembered to put sand in the hydraulic and fuel tanks?) And while I don't normally advocate this ELF style attack, I also don't remember any public hearing concerning this heavy earth work in Rock Canyon!
Curt
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flying_dutchman
Oct 8, 2003, 12:00 AM
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its private land, ie, someone owns the land and is free to do what they want, unfortunetly. Sad that someone has to take it upon themsalves to vandalize someones equipment.
Bastards call themselves rockclimbers; they rate down with chippers in my opinion. They just give the real climbers a bad name.
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trapdoor
Oct 8, 2003, 12:15 AM
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I concure.
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sbclimber
Oct 8, 2003, 1:37 AM
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In reply to: Sad that someone has to take it upon themsalves to vandalize someones equipment.
Only kidding. This plan of action will only bring moe problems to the issue. Not the way to win the land owner over to the climber's side. eh?
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kman
Oct 8, 2003, 2:02 AM
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quote:
In reply to: its private land, ie, someone owns the land and is free to do what they want, unfortunetly. Sad that someone has to take it upon themsalves to vandalize someones equipment. Bastards call themselves rockclimbers; they rate down with chippers in my opinion. They just give the real climbers a bad name
I agree!
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thehardnailer
Oct 8, 2003, 4:41 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: A "Lighter" note, someone has taken it upon themselves to dis-able the track-ho by smashing out it's windows (I hope they remembered to put sand in the hydraulic and fuel tanks?) And while I don't normally advocate this ELF style attack, I also don't remember any public hearing concerning this heavy earth work in Rock Canyon! Probably not the best way to get the landowner to sympathize with the local climbers, eh? Curt |
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skiorclimb
Oct 8, 2003, 8:18 AM
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Ownership of land is a mater of public record. You can probably just go to the local town hall and look up the deed. You could also do a deed search online.
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thehardnailer
Oct 9, 2003, 6:33 PM
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That last was a real helper, I have contacted the local parks and recreation, provo, and they were a bit suprised to learn of the excavation and removal of rock from these cliffs. I was refered to the Provo Enginering Dept. and they also expressed suprise, as there was no permit filed(even if you own the land you have to apply for a mining permit to exercise mineral rights, as well as an impact study.) The Wasatch range has been mined extensivly and the tailings from these mine opperation's has made its way into Utahs streams and lakes over the past 100 years.
Sooo... at this stage Provo Enginering Dept. is sending someone out to have a look. I will try to keep on it. If any local's can help with information please post it . And please don't do any damage to related equipment at this site, this sort of action is not the answer, and will do more harm than good.
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billcoe_
Oct 9, 2003, 7:03 PM
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Sounds like you are on track to handle it correctly, might want to post info at the local rock gyms and stores to raise awareness and get some assistance.
good luck.
Bill
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thehardnailer
Oct 17, 2003, 6:17 PM
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Just thought that id up-date this info. I have been in contact with Provo parks and recreation, the Uinta national forest service, the Utah county engineering dept,and the Morning herald, a local newspaper. The gentleman who is claiming ownership, a Mr. Davis, has been asked to provide proof of ownership of this land, as the engineering dept. could not find proof of ownership. Mr. Davis appears to have been quarrying stone from Rock Canyon illegally. Un-fortunately it appears that the actions I have managed to start are to late for some of the climbs, specifically the routs on the Black Rose. during this past week the workman who was operating the track-ho report's that the detatched slab(Black rose) dropped 5 ft. and scared the crap out of the operator. I will be in contact with OSHA to report un-safe working conditions. The Black Rose is a detatched slab that leans against the main wall. At 30' tall and 15' wide this slab weighs in at the 100+ ton range and if it falls...understand that there are 100's of user's on the trail and in the area of this slab and the danger to bystanders is considerable. Anyhow the track-ho has been removed from the canyon, and as usual it looks like it will be left to the citizens of provo. etc. to clean up the mess left by Mr. Davis's employee and his poor choice of commercial enterprises. I intend to press charges if it turns out that Mr. Davis was in violation.
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neeshman
Oct 17, 2003, 6:24 PM
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Way to go! Woot Woot! This Mr. Davis is a freak. What an idiot.
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beercanclimber
Oct 17, 2003, 6:27 PM
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awesome work man, it's really nice to hear that you went about things the right way and hopefully made some progress in the battle to save the crag.
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corpse
Oct 17, 2003, 6:35 PM
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see, 1 person CAN make a difference.
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johnnyslimane
Oct 17, 2003, 6:59 PM
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I am an intern at a civil engineering firm in Louisville, KY, so I actually have a little bit of knowledge of situations like these. Most of this depends on your local government's laws, so on this note... It is generally illegal to do any major disturbance without getting a land disturbance permit from county government first. But of course people tend to ignore this. Whether its ignorance of the law or just thinking they can get away with it, most people just get off with a slap on the wrist and maybe a fine. (The biggest fine I've heard of is $1000, which isn't applied to fixing any damage that was done.) And chances are, as an outside party your will not have any chance of recourse for the destruction of the climbs, even if you set them and had the land owner's permission to do so. As for finding out who the true owner is, the county engineers should have been able to find this out pretty easily through files at the courthouse (or online, as long as it isn't a really rural county). For some reason, county engineers never seem to be able to do anything right...but I digress... You can get a lawyer who works with real estate to find it for you for fairly cheap. We can get on the site for the clerk's office here and find the latest deed, minor plat, neighboring properties, and all that other good info for any property in the county in not even two minutes. Once you find the owner, your choices of what to do revolve around them, so brown nose as much as you can. As for calling OSHA, that may not be in your best interest if you want to save the rest of the routes. If they find it to be a safety hazard for others working in the area, they can close it off or make the owner tear everything down. You're best bet to save it (with the owner's permission, of course) would be to talk to a local civil engineering firm about how to stabilize the site and prevent any further decay from occurring. This is pricey though. Here, you can't talk to an engineer for less than $500 and the hourly rate for one engineer is between $105/hr and $255/hr. This probably doesn't sound too promising to you, but if you can get in well with the land owner, things will go much smoother. Best of luck!
john
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thehardnailer
Nov 1, 2003, 1:42 AM
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finaly starting to get some help with the situation in Rock Canyon, Provo, UT. On the 30th of Oct. the Daily Herald had become involved and ran a good front page center article that outlines the situation and the actions taken so far to stop the damage that has been ongoing for the past month.
Provo city attourneys have charged a father and son, Michal Joseph McPhilomy Sr. & his son M. J. Jr. with 6 counts each of a class B misdimenore offences including but not limited to, impermisible use in an agricultural area, grading, filling or excavation without a permit, and doing bussiness without a license. Each of the 6 counts are punishable by 6 monthes in jail and a $1,000.00 fine. As of the filing of these charges, and subsequent sevice by the sheriff's office, the Mcphilomy's have removed all excavation equipment from the canyon. A big vote of thanks goes out to Mayor Lewis Billings and his staff for doing the right thing!
Charges are being considered against mr. Richard W. Davis the property owner and the man who hired the McPhilomy's. We lost the route "A rose is a Rose" and the future is uncleare about 2 other routes on this face (the slab could fall over) If you would like to personaly thank Mr. Davis for his outstanding land stewardship you may contact him personaly by writing to his home address: 1483 springdale dr. Provo, Ut. 84601 or you can call (801) 226-2760
For all who became involved, thank you !!!
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wlderdude
Nov 23, 2003, 2:18 AM
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I saw the back hoe up there about a month ago and thought that the city was doing something to make the area safer.
Today I saw it and it looked as though somone had quarying rock.
I am sorry to report that the newly exposed rock is already vandalized with grafeti.
It looks like there are some new routes to be had.
All the excavating equiptment has NOT been removed from the canyon, but is sitting next to the trail.
For those who don't know Rock Canyon, it is a CITY PARK which is surrounded by National Forest. It is nothing less than a city park in the traffic it sees, the diversity of people who go there and its use as a recreational area.
I hope that some heads role.
Let's let the city council know what we think of these scumbags.
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puzzlepad
Dec 28, 2003, 5:29 PM
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its hard to think that the first rock climb i did rose is a rose is in someones yard in vegas,,,,makes me sick
go to www.rockcanyonalliance.org to find out how to help
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dave1970
Dec 28, 2003, 8:51 PM
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If it has already been established that he is, in fact, quarrying there then this should be VERY simple to shut down.
OSHA has nothing to do with any safety issues or enforcement thereof if it is an extraction point for any type of mineral resource. The agency you are looking for is called MSHA. They are THE federal requlating and permitting body for all things mining related. The main ofice is in Denver.
Your next step should be to contact them and ask if he even has an MSHA permit number to operate at that particular location. These guys will crawl shut him down post haste. Even if the guy has said permit number, he is clearly not adhering to MSHA regulations that require that he make a beyond reasonable effort to keep unknowing persons from entering the danger zone so to speak. At a minimum this should include extensive notification signage.
Call MSHA
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utahwiregate
Jan 13, 2004, 8:21 PM
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I agree w/ puzzlepad on taking the trip to http://www.rockcanyonalliance.org/
Be sure to fill out the form on useage there and be sure to contact your congressman!!
It is a shame that these things are happening illegally--let's get it to stop!
-quick
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neuroshock
Jan 13, 2004, 8:45 PM
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In reply to: Your next step should be to contact them and ask if he even has an MSHA permit number to operate at that particular location. These guys will crawl shut him down post haste. Even if the guy has said permit number, he is clearly not adhering to MSHA regulations that require that he make a beyond reasonable effort to keep unknowing persons from entering the danger zone so to speak. At a minimum this should include extensive notification signage. Call MSHA
while we, i'm assuming collectively, want the mining/destruction/etc to stop...we'll get under the owner's skin by going to agencies, which probably *will* bring him to a stop, but it'll also get us on his bad side.
what's to prevent him, then, from closing his private land to public access and getting climbers on tresspassing or something? and then, of course, he can always pursue the legal route to resume operations.
i don't seem to have any direct bearing in this matter (i could write and thank him for allowing us to climb there...but i've never been) but i would lean toward negoatiation w/ the landowner to build positive relations and discuss/negotiate access/preservation.
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alpinerock
Jan 21, 2004, 2:56 AM
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anyone know how the trial went? i heard it was scheduled for the 14th?
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wlderdude
Jan 21, 2004, 11:14 PM
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I see here in the Daily Universe (BYU's free newspaper- you get what you pay for) that the trial was rescheduled for Feb 11.
It also says that the State could press charges for a misdemenor resulting in a fine of $10,000 per DAY!
These men face charges of contempt of court for not halting their mining opperations.
If a big stink is not made of this, they may be right in thinking that it is easy to beg for forgivness than ask for permission.
Let's see, October was about 3 months ago, or about 90 days, times $10,000. . . That could bankrupt them. This is an old mining claim, so it is not as if they necissarily have lots of equity.
If the city heard enough complaints, they might even buy the land. I always thought it was a city park. Why can't they make it so?
The city just needs lots of angry citizens who demand action or heads will roll. These people apparently don't even live in Provo.
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