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trguy
Jan 21, 2004, 2:37 AM
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From the sister post this seemed to beg the question... What's the most booty gear you've cleaned on a single climb? (Assuming you haven't pilfered an ongoing project)
What do you typically do with the stuff?
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drkodos
Jan 21, 2004, 2:50 AM
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Just recently frantik and I scored much gear on Tree route @ Dome Rock, near the Needles, Ca. Three cams, 6 biners, five shoulder slings. Based on the placements on the pitch as an anchor, we rightly concluded that the party had in all likelihood, bailed from this point during the previous days highly charged thunderstorm that even included a few shots of ball lightning.
In the end we got the gear back to the righful owners, figuring they had epiced enough the previous day, and the juju balance of the cosmos would acheive equilibrium.
Back in the dirtbagger period of my youth (mid 30's!), I would prey for rain mid-sunday afternoons to wash the cliffs at the Shawangunks of all the city folk and their shiny gear. Many a monday morning spent free soloing up classics such as Gelsa, Disneyland, Madame Grunnebaum's, et.al. finding the lost relics of Manhattenite culture. Most of it bartered at the Mountain Deli for other gear, food, or combustables.....
edited 1X: Spelling & Continuity
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scubasnyder
Jan 21, 2004, 3:23 AM
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i found a rope bag n a few biners thats about it
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justdyno
Jan 21, 2004, 3:41 AM
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Wow....not only is that violating one of the biggest unspoken rules of climbing...its just down right immoral.... i mean come on, even a few biners could be a big chunk of cash to someone like myself...its hard for me to find an exrtra twenty bucks to spend on gear and when i get things jacked it sets me back by far........ignorantly snatching a nut in your early days is one thing......bragging about gear youve stolen is definately another.....
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drkodos
Jan 21, 2004, 4:41 AM
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In reply to: Wow....not only is that violating one of the biggest unspoken rules of climbing...its just down right immoral.... i mean come on, even a few biners could be a big chunk of cash to someone like myself...its hard for me to find an exrtra twenty bucks to spend on gear and when i get things jacked it sets me back by far........ignorantly snatching a nut in your early days is one thing......bragging about gear youve stolen is definately another.....
Did someone delete, or am I missing the thought flow here
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catbiter
Jan 21, 2004, 4:49 AM
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We found a nut at Seneca once. Lots of biners from people bailing and failing on sport routes. There is a cam that is stuck on Cons East, one on the Old Lady's Route, and one on Lower Skyline Direct. We couldn't get them out, but even if we did they would just be decorations on the lamps at home. The cables were blown from everyone trying to wiggle those buggers out.
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craggincragin
Jan 21, 2004, 5:04 AM
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In reply to: Wow....not only is that violating one of the biggest unspoken rules of climbing...its just down right immoral.... i mean come on, even a few biners could be a big chunk of cash to someone like myself...its hard for me to find an exrtra twenty bucks to spend on gear and when i get things jacked it sets me back by far........ignorantly snatching a nut in your early days is one thing......bragging about gear youve stolen is definately another.....
Climbing is a big free-for-all, c'mon. If people are that thoughtless to leave hunks of gear lying around at the crag, maybe they need someone who can take care of all that gear - like me :lol:
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lemmon_squeezer
Jan 21, 2004, 5:20 AM
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Hey, Justdyno is right... if gear is found on a crag-leave it there or take it and attempt to find the rightful owners. Even a $12 draw is alot to some college students think about how you would feel if your gear was pilfered. "Do unto others"
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drkodos
Jan 21, 2004, 5:27 AM
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You guys are kidding, right?
Let me help educate:
Booty is a time honored tradition in climbing. There is a difference between leaving gear while one is working a route (untouchable!) and gear left from a failed or aborted attempt. Booty rules state the the leader of a climb that finds any pieces left has first dibs. Period. Even if that leader leaves the piece for the seconf/follower to clean. (The rule in this sitch is that the if the leader clips it, it's his/hers, varies by partnerships)
Whether or not one then efforts to get the gear back to it PREVIOUS owner is up to that individual.
When people at the Gunks build anchors because .01" of rain falls, and instead of WALKING OFF THE CLIFF, or rapping from an already established anchor, they decide to bail back to the city in their $30,000 SUV's I don't think there is an issue of theft.
If anyone does, I humbly suggest you need to become further steeped in the tradition of the pursuit we call climbing.
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lemmon_squeezer
Jan 21, 2004, 5:41 AM
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dont get me wrong, I'm not trying to pass judgement on anyone. If anyone wants to booty gear off of a route that is their perogative. As drkodos said finders keepers. I however will not touch gear on a route because, as I stated before I would be bummed if for some odd reason I had to bail from a route and came back the next day to find my gear gone I would be heartbroken.
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crankenstein
Jan 21, 2004, 6:04 AM
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[quote="drkodos"]You guys are kidding, right?
Let me help educate:
Booty is a time honored tradition in climbing. quote]
Amen. I've given and I've taken.
Back to the question. I found a tricam at the base of Nutcracker and then bootied a forged friend later on the same climb. I'd say that 1/3 of the cams on my rack have been "rescued" out of tight places as they were obviously abandoned gear.
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drkodos
Jan 21, 2004, 6:32 AM
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In reply to: I'm not trying to pass judgement on anyone.
I hate to see the results if you actually tried, then.....lol :wink:
I hear you, and if you read the first part of my post, you will see that the largest booty score of my life was given back magnanomously. But each case and person is different. If you choose to not take it, do you rationalize that the next person on the route will somehow feel the "karma" and do likewise? or as in most cases, just take it themselves?
just wonderin......
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addiroids
Jan 21, 2004, 6:41 AM
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Most at one time:
A number 2 camalot.
Total:
About 5 cams, 15-20 nuts, 10-15 biners, various slings I don't use.
All of the gear was "fixed" or bail gear. None was pilfered from the base or other deplorable thing like that. And if gear is hanging from a route it is booty. But ONLY if you climb the route onsight!!!
TRADitionally yours,
Cali Dirtbag
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strider
Jan 21, 2004, 6:46 AM
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Ya know, I have found one piece of gear, a quickdraw on Nutcracker (they dropped it and I found it in a crack) and I returned it to the owner. I have also never lost a single piece of gear. You guys talking about how it is wrong to take booty gear, let me tell you a little story...
The Story: It was a long day of climbing. The clouds were overhead, the trails were a bit muddy, it threatened to rain all day, it was cold and windy and I was loving it. I was climbing with a friend of mine who had never climbed before, so we were top-roping a bunch of different rocks and routes. If you are familiar with Castle Rock SP, we started the day at the Waterfall wall and did 5 different routes. Then a hike to Castle Rock proper and we did 3 routes there. Then out to the road and over to Indian Rock where we did two routes there and some bouldering. Then over to Lime Disease Rock and we did two routes there. We did a lot of climbing and an assload of hiking. When we were done we packed up and and as we headed home it started to rain. Whheeww, that was close, glad we just finished climbing. When I got home I was beat. I dumped my gear on my floor and started organizing it. Then I realized that when my friend had pulled the last top-rope, we had neglected to retrieve the anchor. DOH! Thats a two $20 Sterling Cordlettes and 5 locking carabiners at $8 a pop (the anchor was two bolts backed up to a distant third bolt, that why I need two cords). Thats's $80 bucks that I just threw away. But wait! It's 9 pm. We left at sunset and it has been raining since. That means no one has had the chance to booty my gear! I jumped in the car at 9:30pm, drove for an hour, hiked for 15 minutes in the rain, retrieved my gear, hiked out 15 minutes in the rain and drove an hour home. I arrived home at 12:30 am after a stop at 7-11 for a late dinner.
The Situation: I am poor. I make $250 every 2 weeks and spend every cent of it on food, smokes,gas and bills. I walk or hitch a ride almost every where so I can use my gas to only get to work. I eat next to nothing and when I do it ain't Prime Rib and Lobster.
The Point: If you don't have money to replace bail or lost gear then don't lose your damn gear. If you have to bail then figure out a way to get it back. Rappel from the top, ask the next climber to get it for you, get a damn helicopter to lower you down to get it. But when someone else takes it because you left it there, don't bitc piss and moan. It makes you look stupid.
-n
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coldclimb
Jan 21, 2004, 7:35 AM
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I got two biners and a nut from one climb once. Nothing more. :P
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ropeburn
Jan 21, 2004, 7:58 AM
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Nothing.
I guess everyone who climbs in the same places as I feels the same about their gear as I do mine.
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cantbuymefriends
Jan 21, 2004, 8:27 AM
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Except for all the trash left by other people that I hauled out from crags, the only thing I got is a 20ft static rope... It was in the forest at the walkoff from a rarely visited crag, and it was noone else around that day. It was nicely coiled so someone had obviously dropped it when walking down, but it didn't seem worth the effort to try and find the owner.
On the plus side I've never left anything either, but for a few prussik cords for rappels.
But I found a perfectly good, almost shiny new, climbing rope once! It was at a weekend gathering and most of the people had already left. My party was packing up, and suddenly found a perfectly fine, nicely coiled rope at the campsite! What to do? But there was still some people climbing, so maybe someone just left it there for later? So we decided to leave it. But later I learned that someone had forgotten it there, and it was gone when he came back to look for it! So now I wish I had taken it and tried to return it to the owner, cause most of the people there were (poor) students. :(
Bad karma for me? I don't know. I didn't steal it. And IF I had taken it, I would at least have tried to return it to the owner. But I left it for someone else to take...
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rock_hunter
Jan 22, 2004, 7:35 PM
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booty is booty. If someone leaves gear on a route and then you find it, then its yours. I have found four things while climbing routes (2 on one route on different days). I found 2 biners, 1 #10 Hex, and 1 #10 nut. The nut I even got while the owner was there. He and his partner were doing the route before us and both had forgotten to bring a nut tool so they had to leave a nut at the top of the route. They said if I could get it, it is was mine. So when it was my turn to lead I went up and popped it right out. When I was done I even offered to return there nut (mainly because my rack is much larger than theirs and I didn't need it) but they refused saying that they had abandoned it so it was rightfully mine. So if I climb a route and find something left behind then its mine. With that said if I ever found a substantial about of gear (ie part of a rack, or a rope, or shoes)
I would make an effort to find the owner and if the owner didn't surface then I would assimilate the gear with mine.
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petsfed
Jan 22, 2004, 8:19 PM
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Best ever: a 3.5 camalot very clearly dropped, sideways, into an offwidth. Its no wonder it was still there, as we needed a 10 Foot Pole, a 12 foot sling, and 2 nut tools to dig it out. And for the amount of work to get it (over 3 hours worth), there's no way I'm going to try to return it. I've left slings and the like before. One of these days I'm going to have to leave something more substantial. When that day comes, whoever can trick that sucker out can have it!
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climbhigh2005
Jan 22, 2004, 9:22 PM
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one old school quickdraw that was rusted!
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coylec
Jan 22, 2004, 10:15 PM
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I want to thank cantbuymefriends for packing out trash that others have left. Along that line, I want to post a series of statements for response:
1. If you find booty and take it, in addition to gaining pro for your own rack, you are providing a service to the community, insofar as you are cleaning up what others have left (because you can't steal gear from someone's work in progress). Additionally, most agree that this is an ethical practice. From that perspective, it follows that "taking booty" is ethical and appropriate. But, why is it ethical -- is it ethical because the owner has involuntarily relinquished claim to the piece or because the cleaner is providing a service to the community in cleaning the rock?
2. It becomes difficult to prove taking booty is ethical if the only reason you can claim the piece is because the previous owner involuntarily relinquished claim to it. I say involuntarily because no one leaves gear on purpose, do they? That being stated, a easier ethical calculation occurs if the "booty taking" is justified by a service provided stance. From that perspective, does it follow that if one wishes to claim booty (take possession/responsiblity for the piece), then one also has an ethical responsiblity to take possession and responsiblity for other pieces left by climbers, be it a brand new Alien cam or crushed beer can?
Simply stated, if you want to take the booty, should you also be responsible for taking the trash along with it? I'm not suggesting that if you want to take a nut from Looking Glass, you have to pack out every piece of trash in Pisgah, but shouldn't you also try to pack out some trash as well?
coylec
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trguy
Jan 23, 2004, 12:27 AM
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There were more post criticizing the liberation of booty gear than I expected... The gear I've retrieved so far was left behind because it was either severely wedged or over cammed or stuck by some means that required a bit of experience or a subtle touch to remove.
On one occasion I attempted to return (2) slings to a party as the rappelled by and we were ascending. After verifying they belonged to a guy in the descending party, in the spirit of booty gear he refused to take them. Of course we're talking slings here.
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lemmon_squeezer
Jan 23, 2004, 12:54 AM
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In reply to: If you choose to not take it, do you rationalize that the next person on the route will somehow feel the "karma" and do likewise? or as in most cases, just take it themselves? just wonderin......
I understand the argument completely, my climbing buddies have argued the same point many times before. I do realize that if I don't take it the next guy will...or if not him then it will be pilfered eventually. I dunno maybe I am a serious dork but I always feel like the owner could be right around the corner coming back to re-claim the gear. check that, I probably do have serious dork issues :)
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climblouisiana
Jan 23, 2004, 12:57 AM
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More than I can count.
Most recently somebody left a brand new quick draw on the second bolt of a 5.5 route at the parking lot of Lower Devil's Canyon. After some consideration, I think that they may have been projecting the route and I should not have taken it...
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mrme
Jan 23, 2004, 1:00 AM
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cam with beaner
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