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miagi
Mar 18, 2002, 11:59 PM
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Ive heard about how you must be experienced to bolt your own bolts. Problem is, the only sessions around me teach top rope. Is it difficult to place bolts. Im not going to try this myself, just wondering. [ This Message was edited by: miagi on 2002-03-18 20:35 ]
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pianomahnn
Mar 19, 2002, 12:08 AM
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I don't think it's quite as cut and dry as "is it easy to place bolts." On a slab, hanging off a top rope, sure, I bet placing bolts is a walk in the park. On a 45 degree overhang, I bet placing the bolts is rough as hell.
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dustinap
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Mar 19, 2002, 12:11 AM
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If you have to drill the rock, check the bolting practices with local climbers. I would also suggest bringing a tork wrench with you. I have NEVER personally placed a bolt, but that is the information I can give you. I do know that it is pretty easy to know when a bolt is set properly, or so I hear, but bringing a tork wrench is never a bad idea.
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radistrad
Mar 19, 2002, 12:15 AM
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Check out the ASCA, you can find articles on how place bolts and lots of other valuable information. Its really about rebolting, but it should answer some questions, I hope http://www.safeclimbing.org/ [ This Message was edited by: radistrad on 2002-03-18 16:18 ]
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miagi
Mar 19, 2002, 12:40 AM
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thanks radistad. Ill chk it out
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radistrad
Mar 19, 2002, 12:53 AM
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One you place a bolt it is permenant. You are donating it to he greater cause of climbing.
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miagi
Mar 19, 2002, 1:09 AM
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Its not that expensive either
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treyr
Mar 19, 2002, 1:36 AM
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It is not extremely hard all you need to do is use a hand drill avaible at http://www.mgear.com but it is easier to do it on a rappell. Trob
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apollodorus
Mar 19, 2002, 1:43 AM
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Make sure you read the ASCA's wisdom on the use of stainless steel bolts, reusing old holes, etc. Drilling bolts for pro is generally easier than for aid, because you don't have to reach way over your head. Sometimes, it's better to reach WAY up to place a protection bolt, but usually it makes little difference if it's a couple of feet higher or lower. Basically, you climb to a good rest, or hold where you can let go with both hands. Then, you hit the drill with the hammer about a thousand times, and blow the rock dust out with a piece of plastic tubing. Then you insert the bolt, pu the hanger on and tighten it up. Simple. The 3/8" x 2" five-piece stainless steel rawl is the preferred weaponry these days. You don't need a torque wrench up on the wall. Instead, use the torque wrench to tighten a bolt on your car, or whatever, and get a feel for how tight it feels with the wrench you'll take up with you. [ This Message was edited by: apollodorus on 2002-03-22 15:10 ]
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miagi
Mar 19, 2002, 2:22 AM
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So basically i get a drill bit and a hammer. Hit, turn, hit, turn, hit, turn....all the way until the bolt cant go entirely through the rock. Then i get the bolt with a hanger, lightly hammer it into the rock, and torque it with a wrench till its tight. Then voila! Im done?
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crackaddict
Mar 19, 2002, 2:53 AM
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Miagi you make it sound so easy. If it were only that way. When using a hand drill you need to turn and hammer at the same time. If hammer without turning you will ruin your bit and get nowhere. A good thing to do is pracice on a chunk of rock. Get boulder from the area you are going to drill at and give it a try before you try a route. It's a lot of work! Practice till you know that you can drill a good hole. Keeping the bit level is important. My advice you are planning on drilling a lot and in a popular area that is known for rap bolting use a cordless hammerdrill. That is if the area permits you to use one. You will drill a better hole and the people who climb it after you will thank you. Remember be responsible your climb is everyone elses too.. Also drilling in the right places is important. Check the nature of the rock. Dont just drill a straight line. If the rock sucks and is cracked and sounds hollow. It's probably a good spot. I come across lots of bolts on routes that I can't belive are still there. I sugest you take in all the advice given by the above post. Check out the link that radistrad gave. www.powers.com is the site for rawl they have a lot of info and specs for drilling and placing anchors in concrete. Be safe. Happy hammering! [ This Message was edited by: crackaddict on 2002-03-18 18:58 ] [ This Message was edited by: crackaddict on 2002-03-18 19:15 ]
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apollodorus
Mar 19, 2002, 2:53 AM
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Yeah, that's it. The only other thing, which is sort of obvious, is to make sure the rock you're drilling into isn't going to fall off. Don't laugh. I've seen bolts placed on flakes, rather than on the wall a couple of feet away. Also, if your rock is sandstone, or rotten granite, then you need to think about using bigger bolts. 3/8" x 2" is for hard granite or limestone. Even hard sandstone probably requires a 1/2" x 3" minimum.
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miagi
Mar 19, 2002, 3:20 AM
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I was looking at petzl's instruction on bolt placing. There is two types of bolt. Threaded expansion and expansion. http://www.petzl.com/FRENG/franchors/climbanchors.html From reading their instructions i totally know how to install the "long life" expansion bolt in the above link. The "coeur goujon" is a little bit confusing. You make the hole, tap the bolt in with a hammer up to the first threads, then screw it in? Or do you make the hole, tap the bolt with a hammer all the way till the threads disappear then tighten? [ This Message was edited by: miagi on 2002-03-18 19:27 ]
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dustinap
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Mar 19, 2002, 3:28 AM
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using glue ins wouldn't be a bad idea either. Also, using bolts with rap hangers, like Metolius Rap Hangers is a great idea for anchor spots. Cold shuts are great, they are strong and have a very long life. BTW, you may be 7 feet tall for all I know, but make sure the shorties can reach your bolt spots. Wet Kiss at Pinnacles National Monument has the first bolt in a place where if you're under 5'10 you pretty much need to climb past it, or have a 15 foot tall stick clip. It is very hard to clip the bolt from the layback, but if you're taller then me, lets say by a few inches, you can reach it off bomber handholds and great feet.
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redzit
Mar 19, 2002, 3:46 AM
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Hay M First of all, placement. try to find a place where the rock is solid. if the rock is crumby, flaking, or hallow, find another spot. make sure that the bolt will not get damaged by water, freezing water will expand, if it expands between the hanger and the rock, that's a problem. another thing is, DO NOT TRUST or USE OLD BOLTS AND BOLT HOLES. at least with out a good Inpection. Look at every bolt before you trust it. look for rust around a bolt, rust stains, if you can see the bolt shaft it slef look for any oxidisation. Remeber, 3/* is what is used, 1/4 couldn't hold up a sign over a pizza shop. with old Bold holes. don't use them drill another. the old one fell out for a reason. It could be that Water found its way in and the bolt was damaged, or it could be that the rock around it was coroded, and even if there is not evidence of the above, the rock would be weathered during the time it was exposed, NEVER USE OLD BOLD HOLES. The other thing is don not get any fancy ideas to make you own hangers, nobody should. they are designed a certain was for load in a certain direction. may be 1 in 20 home made hangers will do a half desent job at best. for more complete stuff, BUY A BOOK hope this helps, Kevin
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miagi
Mar 19, 2002, 4:34 AM
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I dont think anyone read my follow up reply. Quote: I was looking at petzl's instruction on bolt placing. There is two types of bolt. Threaded expansion and expansion. http://www.petzl.com/FRENG/franchors/climbanchors.html From reading their instructions i totally know how to install the "long life" expansion bolt in the above link. The "coeur goujon" is a little bit confusing. You make the hole, tap the bolt in with a hammer up to the first threads, then screw it in? Or do you make the hole, tap the bolt with a hammer all the way till the threads disappear then tighten? Anyone at all have detailed instructions? Anyone that has placed these types of bolts before. Im trying one on a small boulder so im not going to hurt myself.
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crackaddict
Mar 19, 2002, 6:18 AM
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How the 3rd picture shows on the diagram is the way. Put the hanger and the nut on bolt. Hammer the bolt in the hole till the hanger touches the rock. And then begin tightening. What happens is that the sleeve on the shaft will slide and expand while you tighten. If the hanger does'nt touch and there are threads showing. Then the bolt will tighten but the hanger will spin. Good luck! [ This Message was edited by: crackaddict on 2002-03-18 22:20 ]
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apollodorus
Mar 19, 2002, 6:40 AM
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Not only have I placed bolts in rock, I have also done a lot of concrete work. So, here it is: You want the nut flush with the end of the bolt, and then tap it in until the hanger is tight to the rock. When you tighten the nut, the center bolt pulls out and expands the sleeve in the process. The bolt will pull out about 1/8", or so in a good placement. It should start to tighten up almost immediately as you turn the nut. By the way, a better bolt is the stainless steel rawl 5-piece. It is similar, but it has a better expansion mechanism. Also, I've always turned the drill between blows when using a hand drill. That was the way I learned to do it. The flat chisel at the end of the drill cuts a little groove; you turn the drill about 30 or 45 degrees to make an X, which chips some pieces out. You keep doing this, rotating the drill in the same direction. A rotahammer turns constantly while pounding away, and uses a similar bit. If you can turn the drill while hitting it, whatever.
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miagi
Mar 19, 2002, 12:43 PM
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Ahhh, i get it apolo. Thanks alot man. Nice 10 for ya The picture was a little misleading at petzl's site. It shows one pic drilling then the second pic hammering the bolt into the rock with half the threads showing, then tighten. I fully understand now. I think im going to go buy a bolt and hanger, place it on my boulder and do some tests to see if its a good placement. Also from the sites i visited it says hammer then turn. Not hammer and turn at the same time....who knows [ This Message was edited by: miagi on 2002-03-19 04:44 ]
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radistrad
Mar 19, 2002, 2:31 PM
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I beleive (I may be wrong) that a lot of bolts are placed from some sort of direct aid. The free climbing leader climbs up to where he wants the bolt, he then finds a place where he can use a hook to hang from and goes to work. Can you imagine placing bolts on lead on anything harder than a 5.10 w/o direct aid to support the climber. I can think of many harder climbs where the leader has enough edges where he can stand hands free and drill. Rap bolting is bad pratrice in some areas, at other areas its the norm.. Did you guys read the ASCA page on re bolting? Chris Mac., who is the president says dont turn the drill while the hammer is striking it. He has placed many bolts and his team of ASCA climbers have replaced tons and tons of bolts. I trust these guys and their knowledge. Chris Mac. has over 50 El Cap climbs under his belt. He also says to reuse the old hole when possible, I bet in soft rock this is not as wise. www.safeclimbing.org Check it out if you have not. Also I understand that glue in bolts are for softer rock and hard to place. Its my policy to leave bolting to the pro's, they are the ones who have the time and experience. [ This Message was edited by: radistrad on 2002-03-19 06:34 ]
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rrrADAM
Mar 19, 2002, 2:37 PM
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I put a lot of info in here... An expert opinion on bolts.... rrrADAM
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miagi
Mar 19, 2002, 7:08 PM
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So how do you know when to stop tightening? Is it a "feeling" that you acquire from past bolting? If anyone has beta on the tightening of a bolt please tell Adam your post told about the dangers. It was really helpful. Thanks
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rrrADAM
Mar 19, 2002, 7:22 PM
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Optimally, you would want to use a torque wrench, but this is not practical. So practicing with a torque wrench so you are familiar with how tight this feels is a good alternative. The purpose of me writing that post, listed above, was to bring to everybody's attention the many things people don't know about bolts, but still think all are bomb-proof. How many people can tell a properly set bolt, just by looking at one. None, myself included !!! How many can tell if the bolt used was the proper choice for it's application, just by looking at one. Very few !!! rrrADAM
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verticallaw
Mar 22, 2002, 10:51 PM
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hey. this is all great but unless i missed it no one has talked about actual placment. I dont belive that the way that you drill matters if the placment sucks. watch out for crack in the rock and if your setting toprope or rap bolts make sure the edge is secure. We re-bolted a route recently because whoever bolted there first bolted in a crack (for ease of drilling) you could pry some of the bolts out with a piton. other than that good luck hand drills suck bang,turn,bang, ect...
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apollodorus
Mar 22, 2002, 11:17 PM
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Radistrad is totally right about using a hook for placing bolts on hard free climbs. I've heard of people doing this, but have never done it myself.
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