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Gollum hit the big time
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stick233


Jan 22, 2004, 12:17 PM
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Gollum hit the big time
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Surprised no one has mentioned the appearance of cryder's gollum pic in this months Climbing rag... did they get your permission cryder? anyway, congrats... a little photoshop work gets a little publicity...


overlord


Jan 22, 2004, 12:21 PM
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nice.


jughead


Jan 22, 2004, 12:23 PM
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very coolsaw some posters aroun my gym featuring the now famous pic 8)


strongerthanyesterday


Jan 22, 2004, 12:29 PM
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Did they get Climbsomething's permission? That was a great image but let's not forget who took the original and deserves credit and the right to be asked her permission and to be compensated. her name was second, like some kind of afterthought. :evil:


alderak


Jan 22, 2004, 12:48 PM
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I wonder how they got ahold of the pic.... prolly something somewhere that states that every picture posted is public domain or something silly like that..


xanx


Jan 22, 2004, 12:51 PM
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congrats... cryder is truly the photoshop master. i actually think his "dry dreams" blow the gollum pic out of the water.

anyway nice job, always good to see ppl on here go big!


tucsonalex


Jan 22, 2004, 12:52 PM
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In reply to:
I wonder how they got ahold of the pic.... prolly something somewhere that states that every picture posted is public domain or something silly like that..

In reply to:
This website and all of its content and design are Copyrighted 1995-2003 under US copyright laws.
You cannot reproduce or distribute this material in any way without the written consent of the owners.

Look closely, this is at the bottom of every page. Submitted photos remain property of the photographer.


Partner j_ung


Jan 22, 2004, 12:54 PM
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Did they get Climbsomething's permission? That was a great image but let's not forget who took the original and deserves credit and the right to be asked her permission and to be compensated. her name was second, like some kind of afterthought. :evil:

My thoughts exactly! Somebody's slimy in all this and I ain't talkin' about Gollum.


flagstaff_climber


Jan 22, 2004, 1:19 PM
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Yea, I just missed being in Climbing once agian, I was belaying for that pic :) Well maybe someday :)

Rick


slcliffdiver


Jan 22, 2004, 1:51 PM
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Yea, I just missed being in Climbing once agian, I was belaying for that pic :) Well maybe someday :)

Rick

The question is did you trust Gollum to belay you up? He may have wanted your "precious" gear.


fitzontherocks


Jan 22, 2004, 1:59 PM
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I think it's backwards: wouldn't climbsomething be liable for copying Gollum from the movie?


epic_ed


Jan 22, 2004, 2:06 PM
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She didn't -- Cryder did. But even then, he took a public image and altered/edited it. No copyright violation (as has been asserted by a few people who were discussing this in another thread).

Ed


tucsonalex


Jan 22, 2004, 2:09 PM
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I think it's backwards: wouldn't climbsomething be liable for copying Gollum from the movie?

Just so you're up to speed.
Hillary took this amazing photo of Kole:
http://www.rockclimbing.com/photos.php?Action=Show&PhotoID=18131

Cryder turned it into this:
http://www.rockclimbing.com/photos.php?Action=Show&PhotoID=18873

Climbing magazine then published it giving Hillary nothing more than her
name second in the photo credit.


sixter


Jan 22, 2004, 2:09 PM
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I think it's backwards: wouldn't climbsomething be liable for copying Gollum from the movie?

I would have to check my photgraphy books to be sure, but I think this falls under "fair use". If the original work is significantly changed, then you are creating a new copyrightable image. I believe this sort of work and parody is protected under copyright laws, but don't quote me on that.


curt


Jan 22, 2004, 2:16 PM
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She didn't -- Cryder did. But even then, he took a public image and altered/edited it. No copyright violation (as has been asserted by a few people who were discussing this in a nother thread).

Ed

Someone seems to have given Cryder bad advice. Unless he got specific permission from the makers of the LOTR movies, he is stealing copyrighted material. He (and Climbing Magazine) could be liable for damages.

Curt


scubasnyder


Jan 22, 2004, 2:18 PM
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that photo was pretty nice, looked realistic


fitzontherocks


Jan 22, 2004, 2:36 PM
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"The purpose of the work is to be given considerable weight.  For instance, a parody that comments on the original work, as opposed to copying the work merely to get attention, is more likely to be viewed as having a valid defense under the fair use doctrine. "
-- from http://www.independentdealer.com/marketing/marketing3.asp

I'm no lawyer, but I'd bet a nut "fair use" this was done "merely to get attention." It actually looks like two parties are remiss... whoever photoshopped the shot, and Climbing magazine. Don't get me wrong. I have no dog in this fight. I think the original photo is great and the photoshop Gollum is awesome. But that's the kind of thing you share with friends, not the World Wide Web. Friendly advice: don't flash your homemade money around the bank.


dsafanda


Jan 22, 2004, 3:06 PM
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But even then, he took a public image and altered/edited it. No copyright violation

I don't know Ed. Just because an image has been distributed to the public through various channels(movies,posters, werb sites, etc.) does not mean that there is no copyright protection for the image in question. I imagine that particular image of Gollum is indeed protected by numerous copyrights.

One question that comes to mind is...did Cryder actually render that illustration from scratch or did he simply take a still from the movie or movie promotions and paste it in to another photo along with a few Photoshop tweaks. That might make a big difference. I'm assuming it was a case of a sophisticated cut and paste job but correct me if I'm wrong.

I really don't know the answer but my guess would be that by the letter of the law it is indeed a copyright infringement. Intellectual property and copyright laws make for interesting discussions. In any event, with the amount of movie piracy that is going on right now, I would think that the studio responsible for Lord of the Rings has much bigger fish to fry. RC.com or even a climbing magazine doesn't even make for a blip on their radar. If I were the orginal Gollum illustrator/animator I'd be flattered instead of upset.


climbsomething


Jan 22, 2004, 3:29 PM
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Surprised no one has mentioned the appearance of cryder's gollum pic in this months Climbing rag... did they get your permission cryder? anyway, congrats... a little photoshop work gets a little publicity...
Cryder's pic? Cryder's permission? Christ. It was HILLARY's pic, then became Hillary's and Nicholas' pic.

And no, Climbing magazine did not obtain my permission, or contact me at all regarding use of the image. Cryder, yes, but not me. I guess despite them giving me a joint photo credit, I didn't really matter.

Furthermore, Climbing did not put the photo into any context. For all non-rc.com junkies know, that was the slick work of some in-house creative dude at Climbing or within the LOTR family.

I did not alter a photo of Gollum. I took an original photo of Kole. Cryder then applied his Photoshop savvy to my photo. I have had no part whatsoever in potentially stepping on any copyright toes.

I am more than a little pissed.

One more knock against Climbing magazine, and you may already know how much I love them.

But gee, I hope all of Climbing's readers worldwide really really dig that image.


dbtex


Jan 22, 2004, 3:49 PM
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There seems to be a lot of speculation or conjecture about the law, on the part of more than one, in this thread. Is there an atty., that knows the "ins and outs" of copyright law, that will respond and clear the air. I would like to know the "real" answer.

As for the shots, regardless of the legal implications, they both show artistry. My hat's off to all three talents: Cryder, Hillary, and Kole. Keep up the good work!


dsafanda


Jan 22, 2004, 3:59 PM
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There seems to be a lot of speculation or conjecture

ha! Ofcoarse. What do you think this forum is for?

Actually, I'd love to hear an answer from an intellectual property lawyer also. I'm not holding my breath.


curt


Jan 22, 2004, 4:00 PM
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There seems to be a lot of speculation or conjecture about the law, on the part of more than one, in this thread. Is there an atty., that knows the "ins and outs" of copyright law, that will respond and clear the air. I would like to know the "real" answer.

As for the shots, regardless of the legal implications, they both show artistry. My hat's off to all three talents: Cryder, Hillary, and Kole. Keep up the good work!

My wife (Lisa) has litigated copyright and trademark infringement cases in the past, both in this country and internationally. My post in this thread is basically Lisa's opinion--after I printed out both the original "Kole" photo and the altered "Gollum" photo and explained to her that the latter then appeared in Climbing magazine.

Curt


hangdoggypound


Jan 22, 2004, 4:06 PM
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...And no, Climbing magazine did not obtain my permission, or contact me at all regarding use of the image. Cryder, yes, but not me. I guess despite them giving me a joint photo credit, I didn't really matter.

Furthermore, Climbing did not put the photo into any context. For all non-rc.com junkies know, that was the slick work of some in-house creative dude at Climbing or within the LOTR family....

I am more than a little pissed.

One more knock against Climbing magazine, and you may already know how much I love them.

But gee, I hope all of Climbing's readers worldwide really really dig that image.
I would be pissed, too. I've worked with a few freelance writers and industry magazines (not climbing related) through the company I work for - they ask for product to photograph, interviews, etc. I used to be happy with getting "credit" in the article and a plug for our website. But we didn't get extra business to qualify my time and energy. To a degree, receiving credit for your work and time is nice; it's even the right thing to do. It just isn't exactly good enough, though. If they are going to SELL magazines with YOUR work inside, they owe you money.

Never let a magazine use your work - words or photos - for free. Evidently you didn't exactly 'let' them. Like I said, I'd be pissed too.


flagstaff_climber


Jan 22, 2004, 4:35 PM
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As for the shots, regardless of the legal implications, they both show artistry. My hat's off to all three talents: Cryder, Hillary, and Kole. Keep up the good work!


HEY, what about me, I was after all belaying and shouting beta to him :) Geeesh nobody ever apreciates the contribution of the belayer :D

Rick


climbsomething


Jan 22, 2004, 4:42 PM
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In reply to:
In reply to:
As for the shots, regardless of the legal implications, they both show artistry. My hat's off to all three talents: Cryder, Hillary, and Kole. Keep up the good work!


HEY, what about me, I was after all belaying and shouting beta to him :) Geeesh nobody ever apreciates the contribution of the belayer :D

Rick
You were even wearing the Snoopy pants that day! But it's tough to compete with the Enthusiasm! shirt...

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