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Aid to Free to Aid again
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crackboy


Jan 26, 2004, 2:48 PM
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Aid to Free to Aid again
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So i plan on practicing at my gym, more often than not, it looks like the next bolt up would be out of my reach. so i figure its good practice to get smooth free climbing out of the aiders and what not. so you unclip your aiders and away you go until the next piece. so what do you guys do about the aiders you left. obviously if you had 2 pairs of aiders, you can just leave the one pair and use the second, but say you already did that.

what would you guys do, i myself see several options

1. you just downclimb get your aiders and climb back up, tough to do if you are on an overhang or something.
2. you lower off the piece to them
3. just don't leave them on the piece, once you get established in free climbing mode, just clip them to the back of your harness or something

just curious questions from a newbie


Partner calamity_chk


Jan 26, 2004, 3:01 PM
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i'm a total gumbie, but if i'm not standing in the aiders, i generally have them clipped to my harness. (tidiness and organization count.)

though, there's more experienced and detailed advice out there to be had.


crotch


Jan 26, 2004, 3:16 PM
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Fifi in to your last piece. Place a 12" or 24" sling on your high piece and remove your aider. Step in the sling, un-fifi and begin free climbing. Feel free to be scared. That's one way to do it.

Edited to add:

I particularly like those aiders that tuck into a pocket (metolius alpine? aiders) for climbs that have lotsa aid-to-free transitions. It takes a bit of time to stuff the aider away, but then you don't have to worry about all the bulk of a regular aider getting caught on something.


Partner holdplease2


Jan 26, 2004, 3:57 PM
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Crotch -

I like your idea with the sling...something you can stand in, but can also leave behind...and no futzing with the aiders in the midst of bustin your first free move.

Thanks!

-Kate.


vegastradguy


Jan 26, 2004, 4:04 PM
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see, these are the things i wish i had known 2 days ago! wouldnt that have been nice instead of praying that my aiders wouldnt pull me off the damn wall!!! :shock:

thanks for the tip, crotch! i'll be sure to keep that in mind for the next climb!


crackboy


Jan 26, 2004, 5:12 PM
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i guess thats one more reason to have a fifi even ifyou use adjustable daisies.

i like this method, i'll have to give it a shot


peas


Jan 26, 2004, 5:22 PM
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In reply to:
i'm a total gumbie, but if i'm not standing in the aiders, i generally have them clipped to my harness. (tidiness and organization count.)

though, there's more experienced and detailed advice out there to be had.

I also don't have a tonne of aid experience, but I find that just letting my aiders dangle from the daisies keeps them out of the way better than clipping them to my harness. When they're dangling, you pretty much only have the daisy strand to mess with your feet, when they're clipped to your harness you have a bunch of aider steps flapping around.


timpanogos


Jan 26, 2004, 5:25 PM
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Crack,

You also have to consider your belay - if you are soloing, and are making several moves - you may need to switch your belay method to pre-tied loops that you drop at pro points, verses letting out the next moves worth from a grigri or clove.

In my gym, our first bolts are about 10' up, then every 5 or so feet to 43'.


I alpine butterfly into the first bolt - leaving tail to the ground - for cleaning later. I then tie a clove in the second bolt, pulling the lower locker up the wall, so no nasty cross loading happens if you fall.

I then get up the wall a bit more, as 2 * length out gets you to the deck pretty quick in the gym.

I then tie as many 2.5' loops as bolts above that I want to free to (5' apart - yes contrived way short, but good practice) in loose cloves on my big pear backup locker that hangs on it's own tied sling off my belay donuts (a PTPP great idea that keeps loops out of the way, yet quick and easy to get hold of). Careful layout of thes loaded loops becomes very important later!

After I'm all looped up, I drop my grigri self belay (gets scary now) jump on the holds, unclip my aider (really scary now) and go for it.

The fifi and sling sound like a great idea for those - totally terrified moments!

Now as you come to each bolt, clip - drop the clove and move on to the next one.

I can tell you this, I have perfected my free back to aid technique!


bigwalling


Jan 26, 2004, 5:27 PM
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Personally I just start using a bunch of words that wouldn't be appropriate in Church. I clip my stuff to me.


crotch


Jan 26, 2004, 5:28 PM
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In reply to:
I also don't have a tonne of aid experience, but I find that just letting my aiders dangle from the daisies keeps them out of the way better than clipping them to my harness. When they're dangling, you pretty much only have the daisy strand to mess with your feet, when they're clipped to your harness you have a bunch of aider steps flapping around.

If you do this long enough, you'll probably get your aiders caught in a crack at an inopportune time. Nothing like getting halfway through a mantle to find that your harness resists further upward motion.


timpanogos


Jan 26, 2004, 5:39 PM
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I have yanked the rings on my russian aiders so tightly into cracks that it took a tap with a binner to knock it loose.

dragging/dangling all that good aid stuff! I sometimes wish I had a picture of the terror on my face, p1 - moon light buttress - I have NEVER been so terrified before!


I only tried this briefly last Sunday - but I actually clipped my aiders in half and threw them over my shoulder. a bit tricker coming back on aid, but those steps GRAB plastic holds like no ones business!


Chad


crackboy


Jan 26, 2004, 5:40 PM
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You also have to consider your belay - if you are soloing, and are making several moves - you may need to switch your belay method to pre-tied loops that you drop at pro points, verses letting out the next moves worth from a grigri or clove.

so do you mean going froma gri-gri soloing to the clove hitch method, or actually switching the clove hitch from your biner onyour harness to the bolt?

In my gym, our first bolts are about 10' up, then every 5 or so feet to 43'.

this might be the case in mine, since i haven't been out yet, i may even be able to reach the next bolt in the top steps, but they seem alwfully far away. :P

I alpine butterfly into the first bolt - leaving tail to the ground - for cleaning later. I then tie a clove in the second bolt, pulling the lower locker up the wall, so no nasty cross loading happens if you fall.

so basically you are rebelaying the first two bolts

I then tie as many 2.5' loops as bolts above that I want to free to (5' apart - yes contrived way short, but good practice) in loose cloves on my big pear backup locker that hangs on it's own tied sling off my belay donuts (a PTPP great idea that keeps loops out of the way, yet quick and easy to get hold of). Careful layout of thes loaded loops becomes very important later!


so to clarify, you have a bunch of loops formed by your clove hitches, and at each bolt you switch it from your harness to the bolt

i think at my gym i might have to only do one move , probably even just a step up to the next bolt to clip, easily within reach of the last piece

i am just trying to figure things out so i can get the most out of it


timpanogos


Jan 26, 2004, 5:54 PM
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Crackboy,

your gym will likely be about the same - hey, they have to aid it to set the routes. My gym does take getting into the 2nd steps to reach the next bolt - they are equal distance apart, after the first bolt.

My gym does not have any floor anchors, so you have to anchor on the first bolt - 2nd blot cloved to hold the anchor in a good position, and as a backup (ends up primary) - all this means is that on a 43' wall, best case will be 25 some-odd feet of rope out - if you pitch, it's not going to be a nice dynamic belay - get ready for some wall slam if you are over-vertical

If you are only freeing one bolts worth - then don't worry about the loops, just pre-crank about 5' worth of slack on your grigri and tie your backup knot REAL short.


as for clove loops, no, you do not move the clove from you to the pro.

You have enough loop, to the first clove on your belay loop to make it to the next pro - the clove on your belay loop is your belay - if you pitch, this is what is going to catch you.

If you have judged your next distance well, you would not have enough rope to make it to the 2nd pro - you need to drop the LAST clove - now you have free to the 2nd to last clove to move to the next piece - repeat


cologman


Jan 26, 2004, 9:36 PM
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This may be the same as what someone already posted. I have a fifi on each aider. Only hook the fifi in when you move onto a piece. The top hole on the fifi is specifically set up for this next step. If you know you are going to be moving in and out of your aiders alot tie a tether of small mil cord to that top hole and to your waist or your daisy. Now when you start moving free they just lift out behind you. They can get in your way when you're moving free but at my first opportunity I either throw them over a shoulder or clip them up sort. I've gotten to the point with this system I rarley clip into gear with a biner on my aiders. It is also alot less prone to shifting when you are standing in your aiders. My fifi's are permantly tied into my aiders. :D


lambone


Jan 27, 2004, 12:08 AM
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This is a good topic, I haven't read everything here, but I'll pose another Q regarding Aid to free to Aid...

So lets say your aiding, then you bust out some scary run-out face climbing on slimey friction slopers...arn't they allways...then you finaly get to some sketchy aid piece, like a hook, 00 tiped out TCU, ball-nut or something of the sorts...what now?

Do you bounce test the piece? What if it pops, and you don't have a good hold? You're goin for the big ride...

Anyone been in this situation? Those who have will remeber it fondely. :lol:


ricardol


Jan 27, 2004, 12:38 AM
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alot of going from aid to free (and back to aid) depends on the setup you are using ..

if you aid with 3 aiders (one floater) then it makes sense to leave the floater behind on the piece .. if you feel you'll need it later, then try to figure out a way to unclip it as you leave on your free moves .. (if you fifi it, then dont use the floater since it doesn't have a daisy attached to you)

.. fortunately for me when i've had to go from aid to free, i've always been able to get off the aider and unclip it ..

.. i remember in one case that the piece i was moving off from was a nut, and i just needed to do a free mantle move .. i left the 2 aiders on the nut, adjusted the daisies to their full length, did the mantle, and then pulled up the aiders i'd left behind, dislodging the nut in the process.. -- so, sometimes you can plan things like that in advance.

.. while freeing on a grigri, you might as well payout the slack you need to get to the next piece of pro ... last thing you want is to get stuck 1/2 way through because of lack of slack .. (its the same ammount of fall -- you're just risking it for a longer time) ..

.. also when you go into free mode, clip your aiders to your harness, they will otherwise catch on something, or tangle in your feet .. (i almost blew a series of 5.6 slab moves due to this) -- since i clip my aiders to the back of my harness i found that having lead carabiners that are different that my other biners makes a big difference in finding your aiders when you can't look behind you to make sure you have the right piece of gear (ALOT of stuff goes on the back of my harness) .. my lead biners have 2 notches on the gate so i can tell when i've found them by touch. (very nice oval key-gate biners)

.. i think freeing while soloing is the scariest thing you can do -- and in the end its mostly about sacking it up, and just going for it .. i've been fortunate that all the placements at the end of my free moves have been A1 (big hook on a big flake, or C1 cams) .. so no testing was required.

-- ricardo


cologman


Jan 27, 2004, 8:49 AM
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Ah yes! the art of the mental bounce test :lol:


tedc


Jan 27, 2004, 9:28 AM
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In reply to:
This is a good topic, I haven't read everything here, but I'll pose another Q regarding Aid to free to Aid...

So lets say your aiding, then you bust out some scary run-out face climbing on slimey friction slopers...arn't they allways...then you finaly get to some sketchy aid piece, like a hook, 00 tiped out TCU, ball-nut or something of the sorts...what now?

Do you bounce test the piece? What if it pops, and you don't have a good hold? You're goin for the big ride...

Anyone been in this situation? Those who have will remeber it fondely. :lol:

I say don't bounce test this piece. EVER. If it pops while testing..long fall..if it pops while you are on it...long fall. Nothing gained by testing. Furthermore, I won't really bounce test another piece until I have a solid catcher piece in below me. Just get an A1 piece ASAP then resume normal testing.


timpanogos


Jan 27, 2004, 4:00 PM
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"art of mental bounch testing" too funny


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