|
rock_chic
Mar 19, 2002, 6:12 PM
Post #26 of 40
(5014 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 16, 2002
Posts: 9
|
thanks qacwac,
it was pretty mad alright.
We did actually have a camera but no-one felt like videoing what could be this poor guy's last climb!
Someone took pictures, but I dont know where they are ....
|
|
|
|
|
rrrADAM
Mar 19, 2002, 7:38 PM
Post #27 of 40
(5014 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 19, 1999
Posts: 17553
|
We seem to be getting off track here. The purpose of this technique is not to reduce a whipper to a sport climbing fall. It's to be used ONLY to keep the leader from suffering serious injury as a result of groundfall, or hitting a ledge.
It is not for beginners, as this requires someone who is very proficient at belaying, as they will have to think on their feet, QUICKLY. They should be able to give an effective belay through reflex alone, this comes with experience, not reading it in a book or Forum.
Just as a beginner doesn't belong on an R or X rated route, a climber attempting one of these should not have a belayer who's skills are not way above par.
All these "what ifs ???" shouldn't apply...
If the leader is going to deck, arguing for a soft dynamic belay to protect the top piece is mute, etc...
rrrADAM
|
|
|
|
|
murf
Mar 19, 2002, 8:31 PM
Post #28 of 40
(5014 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 15, 2002
Posts: 1150
|
Actually I disagree with "thinking on your feet" as a characterization of what one should do in this type of situation. If you haven't figured out what you're going to do *before* the leader falls, lock off and hold tight. By the time a leader has gotten into a position where a fall could have catastrophic consequences ( barring biner breaking, pro pulling etc. ) the belayer should already have a plan about what your're going to do. Thinking on your feet isn't the way to go.
Leader is way up high, above his last piece, what are you going to do? Your "reflexes" aren't going to tell you the answer. By the time a leader is high above his last piece, I've decided whether I'm going to take in rope, run like hell, or even let rope out.
Deciding whether the last piece is good enough is part of that decision, and could be critical.
Murf
|
|
|
|
|
jt512
Mar 19, 2002, 8:43 PM
Post #29 of 40
(5014 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 12, 2001
Posts: 21904
|
I'm always surprised when a climber has never considered a running belay. When I led Stick To What, which has deck potential between the first and second bolts, I was shocked to find that my experienced trad partner, had no idea what I was talking about when I said get ready to run if I fall.
To me, and to many climbers, it is instinctual to try to shorten the leader's fall. I see belayers all the time who crouch down, lean back, or step back when they catch a lead fall. The problem is that this is often the worst thing that the belayer could do.
The article that Maculated posted the link to explains this very well: Unless the leader is going to deck or the climb is low angle, the belayer must not do anything to pull in rope as the leader's weight is coming onto the rope, because the belayer will violently slam the leader into the wall.
Consequently, the instinctive reaction to shorten the leader's fall must be consciously unlearned. When the route is steep and the leader not in danger of decking, the belayer should allow himself/herself to be pulled up or forward as the leader's weight comes onto the rope, thus, as the article explains, increasing the time over which the impact force is absorbed. This cuts the force of the leader's swing into the wall and makes the fall much safer.
-Jay
|
|
|
|
|
murf
Mar 19, 2002, 9:39 PM
Post #30 of 40
(5014 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 15, 2002
Posts: 1150
|
As Jay has said, often increasing the distance fallen has benefits:
1.) Avoid "short-roping" a climber, thus reducing impact on the legs, usually on a sport climb.
2.) Avoid obstacles, such as roofs.
3.) Soften the impact on a touchy high piece of gear.
Conversely, as with the main point of this thread, sometimes shortening the fall is what one wishes to do.
I think Jay makes another good point that in his experience ( and mine ), most belayers seek to reduce the length of a fall. Skilled and thoughtful belayers will attempt to shorten, or lengthen, or perhaps hold tight, depending on the situation.
Most belayers should just lock off and hold tight, which is more desirable that screwing up while trying something complicated.
Murf
|
|
|
|
|
theamish
Mar 19, 2002, 9:51 PM
Post #31 of 40
(5014 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 19, 2002
Posts: 144
|
Hey Adam, I don't think any one is listening to what your trying to tell them .... this is ground fall that we're talking about folks, the worst thing I can imagine is a belayer that just locks on and stands there looking like a deer caught in headlights while my head tries to displace a foot or so of rock or dirt.
|
|
|
|
|
jcclimber
Mar 19, 2002, 10:03 PM
Post #32 of 40
(5014 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 20, 2002
Posts: 62
|
Good Theories, but I sure as heck believe in the run-like-hell technique. I hope my belayers like it too! it does have a bit of an adverse affect on both the climber and belayer due the sudden jerk, but it is definitely better than having your buddy hit the deck!
|
|
|
|
|
rrrADAM
Mar 19, 2002, 11:44 PM
Post #33 of 40
(5014 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 19, 1999
Posts: 17553
|
Hey murf... You just paraphrased what I said in one of my 1rst replies to this Post, but tried to tell it to me.
Go figure. Did you read all of this before you posted ??? Apparently not.
rrrADAM
|
|
|
|
|
arlen
Mar 20, 2002, 3:58 AM
Post #34 of 40
(5014 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 3, 2001
Posts: 127
|
The technique seems sort of logical, but what about the belayer?
In both the running-away and the running-to (similar to the "jumping catch") technique, the belayer is off balance and off stance. If during this abrupt and fast movement he or she can find a stance and brace for the imminent full force of the catch, it's a safe technique.
But if he or she is rolling on the ground or being pulled into the base of the cliff as a result of the fall force (which would continue until the climber and the belayer dissipate it, there's the chance of the grigri being pinned or accidently held open, right?
And for every movement, deliberate or not, on the part of the belayer, the climber is being bounced, twirled, jerked etc, with cliff features moving past at a dangerous speed.
And what about this placement at waist level? Obviously this technique is a good idea for bolted climbs only, but I assume the waist-high piece would have to be a trad gear placement, receiving pull forces from pretty crazy angles. And if the belayer is running away, the fall forces are going to be much, much higher. If the anchor fails, there's more leader-puppet action.
In any case it beats decking at full speed. It just seems that there are lots of chances for the fall to continue due to some rough times for the belayer. How has this worked out in real life? Can you practice the technique?
Arlen
|
|
|
|
|
jt512
Mar 20, 2002, 4:49 AM
Post #35 of 40
(5014 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 12, 2001
Posts: 21904
|
Quote:In both the running-away and the running-to (similar to the "jumping catch") technique, the belayer is off balance and off stance. If during this abrupt and fast movement he or she can find a stance and brace for the imminent full force of the catch, it's a safe technique. But if he or she is rolling on the ground or being pulled into the base of the cliff as a result of the fall force (which would continue until the climber and the belayer dissipate it, there's the chance of the grigri being pinned or accidently held open, right?
Unless you're belaying on some grim Gritstone horror show, all you're going to have time to do is take one or two steps while simultaneously pulling in an armflength of rope and then maybe drop to your knees. All you have to do is hang onto the rope while doing that. It's not that hard. You can't practice this technique with a falling leader because this technique will slam the leader into the wall. It's usually a lesser-of-two evils technique -- you're trading impact with the ground for hopefully lesser impact with the rockface.
As far as the opposite situation, giving a "jumping" belay, if you get pulled up into the air, just lock off the rope, and lower yourself down when it's all over. If you get pulled into the rock, put your legs out in front of you to absorb the impact. It's no big deal. You can and should practice this. If, like most belayers, you've been conditioned to static belaying, you need to learn to relax and be able to go with the flow. It takes a little practice to get the timing of the jump (or the steps forwar). You wait until you just feel the climbers weight, then jump. You have to anticipate this (as Murph stated) and be ready with your knees already bent. Alternatively, you can just keep your weight forward and allow yourself to be pulled forward from the fall. Just take a step or two forward when you feel tug.
As far as the grigri getting jammed open, anticipate this possibility. If I'm belaying somebody who substantially outweighs me, I stand up close to the wall so I don't get violently slammed into it, and I face the wall so that I can get my feet up to absorb the impact. In this position there is nothing for the grigri to hit. However, there are belay stances where the grigri could become jammed on something, in which case I anchor in.
Quote:And for every movement, deliberate or not, on the part of the belayer, the climber is being bounced, twirled, jerked etc...
No, the leader is free falling through space and can't feel anything from the belayer until the rope becomes tight.
-Jay
|
|
|
|
|
apollodorus
Mar 20, 2002, 4:54 AM
Post #36 of 40
(5014 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 18, 2002
Posts: 2157
|
I deleted my earlier reply because I selfishly didn't take the time to read all the replies, only the indicated hyperlink.
But, RRRadam wanted this, so here it is:
"With a well-trained team of stunt belayers, and their union-mandated assistants and attendants, this system would seem to be perfect for shooting an action sequence for the sequel to the Three Stooges classic, "Vertical Limit.""
That posted, I aver that the run-away belay system is something that I know NOTHING about, and therefore am NOT in any position to comment on.
|
|
|
|
|
murf
Mar 25, 2002, 9:38 PM
Post #37 of 40
(5014 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 15, 2002
Posts: 1150
|
Hey Adam - I just reread ( note the "re" ) and didn't noticed that you covered much from either of my last two posts - be more specific.
Murf
|
|
|
|
|
climber1
Mar 26, 2002, 8:44 PM
Post #38 of 40
(5014 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 5, 2000
Posts: 484
|
you've got to be kidding?
|
|
|
|
|
joemor
Mar 27, 2002, 4:09 AM
Post #39 of 40
(5014 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 3, 2001
Posts: 609
|
sounds like a cool technique, ill have to give it a go soon
|
|
|
|
|
quiver
Apr 6, 2002, 4:37 AM
Post #40 of 40
(5014 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 23, 2001
Posts: 20
|
Thanks for the knowledge.......
|
|
|
|
|
|
