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dirtineye
Jan 28, 2004, 12:16 AM
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Weekend before last, we were considering this line. IT had never been climbed before, and Arno was elected to go up and see what he could do. HE got through a very difficult section to pull up under this roof, that seemed very difficult if not impossible. Time was running out, as we had a late start on this lie because of rain and taking a general tour of the area, adn we had to bail. That day Arno seemed to think the roof was pretty darned hard, if it could be done fee at all. That means it's REALLY hard LOL.
Well, this past weekend, JC and I were back at the same place with the idea of rapping down and taking a good look at the roof to see if there was any way to get through it at all. It looked even more impossible, but there was a place for a piton up under the roof in a tiny seam, that would at least protect the otherwise poorly protected attempt.
SO now we knew the roof was going to be even harder than we thought originally, but there was not going to be a big gear ripping plunge on the attempt, once a pin was in. We knew we were not going to have any chance that day, so we went on to another spot. I've been thinking about the roof for three days now, and it began to dawn on me, there might be a way.
It occured that by assuming the roof is impossible, we will never be able to do it. If we at least believe that the roof might be possible, then we can find a way perhaps. I tie this into the , " Don't try, do,", idea in the following way:
Arno does not like to hear ,"try", because it is potentially a weasel word-- if we say we will try, we are allowing that we could fail. We might not make our best effort if all we do is try.
So now it seems to me that "trying", and " probably impossible", are two twigs on the same branch-- the limiting branch.
On the other hand, if we think that a move or sequence is possible then we are more likely to find a way to execute the move.
Anyway, I hope this isn't too cheesy sounding, but I wondered if anyone else had had any similar ideas?
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lou_dale
Jan 29, 2004, 12:25 AM
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you gave me a WOW moment...............thanks. i have often heard
try and how i wasn't supposed to use it and because of a life-long
use of the word, whether used properly or not, it has been difficult
to drop it from my vocabulary.
but even though arno and his book are so wonderfully written - it's always really nice to hear somebody else's view on that stinky little word "try."
if i can associate that word to impossible and how i see that, it may be very helpful for me. i am probably the only person who has difficulty with "getting" it sometimes......but i just want you to know that you really helped clarify great points made by arno - even more so.
it's just a way of weasling out................loved this and greatly appreciate your thoughts on this.
no weasles here..............
thanks so much
lou
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dirtineye
Jan 29, 2004, 4:29 PM
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Lou,
I'm really glad it made sense to you. It took me a long time to get the idea worked out myself, and it was kind of a lucky accident at that.
I too have trouble letting go of try, and even though I don't think I usually use it in the negative way it can be used, it still is better to think in more positive terms. The difference may be subtle or strong, but it can have a big effect either way.
The changing of perception from Impossible to Possible. One more way of getting our minds around the mental aspects of climbing.
I credit discussions with Arno and reading the book and then having experiences like what I wrote in the post above with helping me learn a better approach to climbing-- at a point where I thought that wasn't going to happen!
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okinawatricam
Feb 24, 2004, 5:47 AM
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Where's the roof??
Eman
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dirtineye
Feb 24, 2004, 8:56 PM
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It's at lost wall.
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dredsovrn
Apr 3, 2004, 10:33 PM
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In reply to: I've been thinking about the roof for three days now, and it began to dawn on me, there might be a way. It occured that by assuming the roof is impossible, we will never be able to do it. If we at least believe that the roof might be possible, then we can find a way perhaps. I tie this into the , " Don't try, do,", idea in the following way: Arno does not like to hear ,"try", because it is potentially a weasel word-- if we say we will try, we are allowing that we could fail. We might not make our best effort if all we do is try. ?
Wow. I think you hit that one on the head. Either do or do not. Commit to the path 100%. Thanks for sharing.
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dirtineye
Apr 4, 2004, 6:39 AM
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You're welcome.
I think you summed up what Arno meant very well just then.
By hte way, we have since visited that climb I referred to again, and it still had not gone free, but it will go.
I wish everyone could see the determination and single mindcedness Arno brings to a hard climb. He worked that roof move for at least two hours, falling resting and going again. HE never got frustrated, he just kept on learning a little in every attempt. Finally to get up itehroute he made ONE french free move (to get to anoother really hard move) and got up the climb.
He never got frustrated or angry or spent any effort on any extraneous thoughts or comments. It was all working the move, learning waht he could, trying something new, falling, getting back on the rock, reasting, evaluating, and going back for another shot at that roof move.
Quite an education.
When I got the the same move on second, I had to laugh-- it was totally out of my ability-- for now. But I know we will hit that thing again and it will go, bacause Arno was so close to nailing this heinous move, two or three times even he almost had it, and it will be done.
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unabonger
Apr 12, 2004, 2:58 PM
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The subject line of "belief in the possible" came to my mind last night when I overheard a woman offering her husband ideas on a climb. He was stuck at the crux, and for every suggestion she made, he countered with a reason that he couldn't do it:
her: "Maybe get your right foot on that hold by your thigh"
him: "That hold is slick"
her: "What about smearing lower?"
him: "I can't make that reach from there".
Thing is, he never even gave them a try. He just dismissed the ideas. The result was frustration on his wife's part and failure to try on his.
One thing about the word "try" is that if you don't believe anything is possible, you'll never even make the attempt. "Belief" is the word we need to eliminate. An act is either possible or not. If you're not sure if it is, well, then it is, that's the definition of possible, really.
The world is full of the possible. It is also full of reasons why something that is possible won't be done.
UB
The PossibleBonger
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jt512
Apr 13, 2004, 2:07 AM
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In reply to: The subject line of "belief in the possible" came to my mind last night when I overheard a woman offering her husband ideas on a climb. He was stuck at the crux, and for every suggestion she made, he countered with a reason that he couldn't do it: her: "Maybe get your right foot on that hold by your thigh" him: "That hold is slick" her: "What about smearing lower?" him: "I can't make that reach from there". Thing is, he never even gave them a try. He just dismissed the ideas. The result was frustration on his wife's part and failure to try on his. One thing about the word "try" is that if you don't believe anything is possible, you'll never even make the attempt. "Belief" is the word we need to eliminate. An act is either possible or not. If you're not sure if it is, well, then it is, that's the definition of possible, really. The world is full of the possible. It is also full of reasons why something that is possible won't be done. UB The PossibleBonger
I'm not sure whether this belongs in this thread (or even this forum), or not, but I'll throw it out. Maybe it'll be relevant.
When learning new technique, or applying a technique in a new situation, sometimes what is really possible will feel or seem impossible, simply because it is unfamiliar. For instance, if you've never done a dropknee before, and your partner suggests that you do one, your reaction is likely to be "I can't" or "that won't work." The whole idea of doing a dropknee is likely to seem absurd. My point is (I guess) is that your thoughts or feelings about a move are not always reliable indicators about whether the move will work in a particular situation. The only sure way to know is to ignore the feeling that the move is impossible and execute the move.
-Jay
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dirtineye
Apr 13, 2004, 2:33 AM
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I think that definately belongs in this discussion JT, because that is exactly what the problem is a lot of the time. Whenver confronted with a section of rock that calls for something we have never done or even imagined before, many aspects of RWW methods may come into play and help us, if we only choose to use them.
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dredsovrn
May 14, 2004, 8:52 PM
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It is always interesting to read these things again after having used them in practice. It serves to cement them in your mind. I had looked at a route that went up through a roof for severel days. It started where another climb ended, and it always struck me as possible. I fell off of the crux twice, but kept going at it and never doubted that it was possible. In retrospect, it never occured to me that I might not be able to do it, and that is what made the difference.
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