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unabonger
Jan 28, 2004, 8:23 PM
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Thank you all for keeping a civil tone. Thank you mods for allowing this to progress. There are still words worth saying on the subject. I know many are jumping in on the ethics of the sport, I'm really just trying to counter some of the "new" trads that think sport climbers have nothing to do with adventure or commitment.
In some ways the advent of sport climbing HAS hurt our sport. What began as Jay describes--a way to push the limits of movement, has become the most popular form of a sport that depends on wild places to survive. First mostly hard climbs got bolted, now many more moderates and the traffic they bring are open. The traffic and trails and landowner issues have meant some areas have closed. Also, though, the popularity has been a benefit. There are hundreds, maybe thousands of areas that are now discovered and accessible only because of the new popularity of climbing.
Mostly my post was to reveal more explicitly what Jay discussed, and to counter some of the newer trad-only climbers who may not understand why many us who now climb mostly sport. We came of age in traditional times, and saw there was something more. We don't deny the adventurous beauty of the old school, in fact, we may revel in it also.
Now, to the poster who said "maybe you can't handle" 12 trad. Well, obviously. Really only a few among us can say they are "solid" on 12 traditional climbs. This is reflected in the very, very small number of hard traditional climbs. The areas that have more than a few are famous because of that, and they're mostly in England, who climb that crazy sh** out of pure hatred for the French. (That's a joke, not a personal attack, ok?).
The GroundFallBonger
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roughster
Jan 28, 2004, 8:26 PM
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In reply to: The areas that have more than a few are famous because of that, and they're mostly in England, who climb that crazy sh** out of pure hatred for the French. (That's a joke, not a personal attack, ok?). The GroundFallBonger
LOL :lol: Truly classic line from the Bonger right there!
*cheers*
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unabonger
Jan 28, 2004, 8:33 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: So, to the hard-line traditionalists this is cheating.... How would any person, in any sport (baseball, golf, football, whatever) not see cheating as something that damaged their sport? Curt It all depends on your definition of "cheating".
Well said Alex. Curt and many traditionalists have a point--not so much about "cheating" hurting the sport, but that sometimes the access to the resource we use suffers because of the popularity sport climbing has spawned.
Its not hard to see how some feel "cheated" out of climbs they thought might go more traditionally. I'd suggest that the benefits of newly developed areas and climbs has outwieghed this, at the same time I'm glad that some areas have been closed to bolting, and have proven to be a ground for testing of limits in traditional ways--Matt Samet in the Flatirons, for example. The Gunks. Eldo.
The FinalWordFromMeBonger
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curt
Jan 28, 2004, 8:40 PM
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Alex,
In reply to: ....In climbing as well, grades that used to be the realm of elite hardmen are now falling to more mortal climbers due to safely bolted routes, modern training methods and the use of seige tactics for working a route. Progress or cheating?
Curt
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the_crawler
Jan 28, 2004, 8:58 PM
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I think that it is important to understand perspective and progression!
Una,
I agree with all that you have said, but a point I'd Like to make is:
The harder trad lines have to be allowed to exist! And by this I mean bolting something so that more people can have access to it is short sighted.
Bolting routes brings down the difficulty. Sometimes people need to have restraint and the ability to say "that's over my head, I'll leave it for some one stronger than myself." And not have the mentallity of "bolt it so I can do it"
What about climbing trad routes on preplaced gear. It seems like the natural alternative to bolting tradable routes.
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tucsonalex
Jan 28, 2004, 9:06 PM
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In reply to: Well, that's the $64,000 question isn't it?...that is something everyone will have to decide for him or herself. Curt
Of course. I personally don't feel that I am cheating or that I have been cheating when I clip a bolt. I think the more important side to this debate should be whether or not the ethics that we choose to abide by will cause unrepairable damage to our climbing areas and create access issues. Climbing has been out of it's infancy long enough that the answer should be easy, yet the debate continues...
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crazygirl
Jan 28, 2004, 9:39 PM
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In reply to: Guess which scenario is me.
#3
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muncher
Jan 28, 2004, 9:54 PM
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Why are the tactics of "sieging a route" considered unethical and cheating? Why are these tactics considered by many to be used soley in the domain of sport climbing?
Please correct me if I am wrong but weren't yo yoing, hangdogging etc "invented" by trad climbers. I am pretty sure Ray Jardine was one of the first climbers to use hangdoggin tactics on his route the Phoenix (a crack that I think was claimed to be the first 5.13). My point is that all the tacitcs that have become synonymous with sport climbing were in use well before sport climbing became widespread. How many cracks were first cleaned on rappel before being yo yoed?
Sure none of these tactics can be considered as "pure" and a ground up ascent (especially first ascent) will always be given more praise than one done with prior inspection etc. In the end though it only really matters to the climber and how they feel themselves about what they have done (so long as they are not damaging the rock).
If they feel they have "cheated" by rapping down and inspecting the route then that is up to them to deal with. If someone does a route ground up next to it then kudos to them.
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roughster
Jan 28, 2004, 9:54 PM
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In reply to: I love all the hate I really do love it. I'm going to put forth a couple of examples. One climber I know. A hard core traddie, he got a drill this year. Now he goes to sport areas and spends all his waking moments drilling. He doesn't even climb trad anymore. In the few times we have gotten him out, all he does is talk about sport. It makes me wonder, is sport climbing an extension or an addiction. Another traddie, got hooked on sport because his parents were friends with a big name sport climber. I took him up Roofus is Vedauwoo. A route well below his ability. He threw a tantrum that it is just not fun. I've never heard of Roofus as not fun. For it's length, probably one of the best 11b's out there Scenario 3. A newbie sport and gym rat. He was redpointing mid 11 a few months after starting. He invested in 4 cams and a set of stoppers and went trad climbing. He got up a 5.7 offwidth, only placed 2 peices of gear and bled all over the place. This was the scariest moment of his life and that lead lasted over 2 hours. Instead of going back to bolt clipping the newbie never sport climbed again. He is now cranking harder trad than he's ever tried in sport. So much for using sport to train. Guess which scenario is me.
And your point is? Neither example is even relative to this argument!
Scenario 1: He is climbing what makes him happy
Scenario 2: He thought the climb sucked. His opinion
Scenario 3: Key words "a few months of climbing". This person (i.e. you) had little to no experience in any form of climbing. So much for using sport to train? You admit you never sport climbed again and yet your sport climbing grade ability is supposed to miraculously go up?
You could have said your post with four words:
"I like trad climbing"
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fracture
Jan 28, 2004, 10:19 PM
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I like sport climbing
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roughster
Jan 28, 2004, 10:26 PM
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In reply to: I like sport climbing
me too :)
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thegreytradster
Jan 28, 2004, 10:36 PM
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History repeats itself!
Intro from the Chouinard 1972 catalog.
A WORD…..
The 1960's marked an awakening in American climbing characterized by a vast increase in climbing
activity, closely paralleled by a corresponding improvement in technique and equipment. Significant
climbing advances have resulted. On the other hand, this combination is producing a serious problem —
deterioration of the climbing environment. The deterioration is twofold, involving the physical
aspect of the mountains and the moral integrity of the climbers.
No longer can we assume the earth's resources are limitless; that there are ranges of unclimbed peaks
extending endlessly beyond the horizon. Mountains are finite, and despite their massive appearance,
they are fragile.
Although alpine tundra, meadows, trees, lakes and streams are all endangered, our primary concern here
is with deterioration of the rock itself. Granite is delicate and soft - much softer than the alloy steel pitons
being hammered into it. On popular routes in Yosemite and elsewhere the cracks are degenerating into
series of piton holes. Flakes and slabs are being pried loose and broken off as a result of repeated placement
and removal of hard pitons.
We can offer a few immediate solutions. Stay off climbs you do not intend to finish. Don't climb up to
Sickle Ledge unless you plan to do the entire Nose. Do not use artificial aid on free climbs. But most of
all, start using chocks. Chocks and runners are not damaging to the rock and provide a pleasurable and
practical alternative to pitons on most free, and many artificial climbs. Do not use pitons on established
clean routes. Where a piton is necessary a fixed piton should be considered and documented in local guide
books. Routes of 5.7 difficulty were climbed 60 years ago in England. Today the footholds on these
routes are well polished, but because pitons have not been used the protection cracks are still in mint con-
dition. We urge to your attention Doug Robinson's excellent treatise on the joys and ways of pitonless
climbing. It was written especially for this catalog.
Equally serious is a moral deterioration. Armed with ever more advanced gadgetry and techniques
the style of technical climbing is gradually becoming so degraded that elements vital to the climbing
experience — adventure and appreciation of the mountain environment itself — are being sub-
merged. Siege tactics, bolt ladders, bat hooks, bash chocks, detailed topos and equipment lists, plus
a guaranteed rescue diminish rather than enhance a climb. Even now existing techniques and technology are so powerful that almost any climb imaginable can be realized, and the fear of the unknown
reduced to rote excercise.
Mad bolters are among the worst offenders of the alpine environment. Young climbers must learn
that bolting is done as a substitute for climbing. Guides, climbing schools and established climbers
have a heavy responsibility here.
We believe the only way to ensure the climbing experience for ourselves and future generations is
to preserve (1) the vertical wilderness, and (2) the adventure inherent in the experience. Really, the
only insurance to guarantee this adventure and the safest insurance to maintain it is exercise of moral
restraint and individual responsibility.
Thus it is the style of the climb, not attainment of the summit, which is the measure of personal
success. Traditionally stated, each of us must consider whether the end is more important than the
means. Given the vital importance of style we suggest that the keynote is simplicity. The fewer gadgets
between the climber and the climb, the greater is the chance to attain the desired communication with
oneself and nature.
The equipment offered in this catalog attempts to support this ethic. Basically multi - purpose, the
articles are carefully designed to serve the overall needs of the climber. More than mere aids. they
are conceived to be used in meaningful combination with accepted technique to elevate the individual
to a rewarding alpine experience.
As we enter this new era of mountaineering, re - examine your motives for climbing. Employ restraint
and good judgment in the use of Chouinard equipment. Remember the rock, the other climber Climb clean.
Signed:
Yvon Chouinard Tom Frost
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alpnclmbr1
Jan 28, 2004, 10:43 PM
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I like sport climbing.
I don't like sport climbers(and boulderers) that don't have a respect for tradition, and that feel that pre existing ethics and styles are meaningless and worthless.
So leave trad routes alone, don't cut down trees and bushes, don't bolt up every last piece of rock. Try to keep an open mind about there being more to climbing then just sport climbing.
Live and let live.
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fracture
Jan 28, 2004, 10:53 PM
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In reply to: I like sport climbing. I don't like sport climbers ...
"Love the sin, hate the sinner?"
:lol:
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cloudbreak
Jan 28, 2004, 10:56 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: I like sport climbing. I don't like sport climbers ... "Love the sin, hate the sinner?" :lol:
...you should be a journalist! :D
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dingus
Jan 28, 2004, 10:58 PM
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In reply to: From what I've read on this site -- which has been plenty -- trad climbers seem to hate sport climbers for two separate reasons. (1) Abandonment of the bottom-up ethic. (2) Abandonment of the leave-no-trace ethic, i.e. bolts marring the rock.
There is only one problem with this theory... sport climbers are responsible for the invention of neither of these techniques.
The first known rap placed lead bolt in Yosemite was used to protect the wild assed flake on the summit pitch of Split Pinnacle. Early 50's I think. Alan Watts wasn't even born yet.
Bridwell rap bolted Wheat Thin. Kauk preprotected Seperate Reality and pre-inspected Tales of Power. The gang banging (yoyo) became popular long before sport climbing was born as well. The list of "transgressions" in the Valley alone goes on and on.
In my view, the main issue remaining between everyone else and the die hard trads is a lack of respect, from both sides. The details have been lost in history. It's just some people don't like it with others refuse to toe their lines.
Went to the Valley two weeks ago. Did a couple of cracks on 5 and Dime cliff, then took note of a new sport climb on the same crag. It wasn't in any of my 3 guides. Walking by, on a spur of the moment, I decided to take a taste.
It wasn't a difficult line at all, at all. My guess was like 5.8 or something. Anyway, you couldn't tell looking up at it. So I had no idea really at all, what I was in for. Yes, clearly I knew the route would go. And I knew I wouldn't die trying it. But then again, I knew every crack on that cliff would go too, the guide book told me so (as well as advising me of the required pro). And I knew I wasn't going to die on any route I did that day, trad or not. So the mystery on 5 and dime is pretty much gone.
And yet, there was this unknown sport climb. Some would consider it a boil. Others the only line worth doing on the cliff. Me? It's just another 1 pitch climb in Yosemite.
My point is that trad and sport mostly do coexist peacefully, certainly in NorCal they do. There are large numbers of climbers who pursue and enjoy both styles. The debate is done. The war is over. Both sides won.
We are living together now. And getting along for the most part.
So these contrive argumets we engage with on internet forums are interesting, but they are also a great sound and fury signifying nothing. These exercises in logic (or illogic) do not reflect the reality.
Brutus and I established two new 1 pitch routes late last fall up Sonora Pass way, one trad, one sport. They are within 5 feet of one another. While the sport climb is the better route and I'm sure you can guess why the trad line was established, neither line detracts from the other.
And I don't want to hear any songs about the bolts I placed. It's not like any of you were climbing there before we did our thing.
Respect local ethics. Telling people sport climbing ethics are illigitmate is not respecting local ethics.
Cheers
DMT
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muncher
Jan 28, 2004, 11:07 PM
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Good points digus, exactly what I was talking about in my previous post. Hang dogging, yo yoing, cleaning cracks on rappel were in use well before sport climbing took off.
I can understand why some trad climbers get annoyed with sport weenies that have no knowledge or respect of the history of climbing and the ethics and styles used in the past (and the present). As I stated earlier though, the person who does a route in the "purest" styel will always get more praise than someone that didn't (at least from the people that matter). That said, unless you are at the cutting edge of difficulty in your area then no one is going to care. If you feel like you cheated then that is something you have to deal with. If not then kudos to you.
I guess what it comes down to is that it is fun to rag on each other.
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dingus
Jan 28, 2004, 11:07 PM
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In reply to: Signed: Yvon Chouinard Tom Frost
Inventors of the rurp and the modern chromolly knife blade, arguably the most destructive tools in climbing.
Ever seen the 1st pitch of Serenity Crack? Sport climbers didn't do that.
Cheers
DMT
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okinawatricam
Jan 28, 2004, 11:31 PM
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Nice Job, Dingus, you beat me to the post about who started the pre inspection and pre placing. Paradise Froks is another area where gear was preplace and routes pre inspected, not bolt anywhere near that place. Separate Reality was the first route that came to mind, even today, the gear is often preplaced. What a great route.
One thing that is often overlooked by the trad only idea is the amount of climbing that this new aspect of the sport has open. Now, cliffs that at one time were not worth visiting have wonderful routes to play on. Lets face it, that is much more potential for bolt protected routes then trad proctected routes. How many little limestone cliffs have become a heaven for local climbers.
As I have said before, each area need it own ethics. The rock and community needs to decide how to make the best possible climbing area out of what is available.
Trad climbers who say bolts are evil, need to go visit some of the Bolt laters that exist on the aid lines of Yosemite.
I can't believe my thread was locked so quickly, but I like the way this one seems to address the issues without resorting to name calling.
A Rock Climber (Sport/Trad/Boulder)
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thegreytradster
Jan 28, 2004, 11:54 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: Signed: Yvon Chouinard Tom Frost Inventors of the rurp and the modern chromolly knife blade, arguably the most destructive tools in climbing. Ever seen the 1st pitch of Serenity Crack? Sport climbers didn't do that. Cheers DMT
Serenity Crack was trashed the first time I saw it in 1970.
They aren't particularly personal heroes, although a lot of us that started climbing in the late 60's early 70's were strongly influenced by the "clean" (hammerless)ethic. The dirty little secret though was we could afford nuts, couldn't afford pins and it made us feel superior to the "old timers" with hammers.
The main point of the post is the timelessness of these kinds of arguments. The key exhortation over 30 years ago was to "exercise restraint and individual responsibility"
Don't think much has changed at all.
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rmiller
Jan 28, 2004, 11:59 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: Trad, sport, bouldering, ice, aid, etc., all leave impacts on the rock and the environent. Most climbers no matter what type of climbing they participate in have a "leave as minimal trace" ethic. Fair enough. But trad leaves less of a trace than sport, correct? Perhaps I should just restate my reason (2) as "Abandonment of the leave-as-little-trace-as-possible ethic".
I would say no, trad does not leave less of a trace.
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okinawatricam
Jan 29, 2004, 12:00 AM
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Nicely put Greytrader. That's one of the reasons I like meeting people who have been climbing longer than me, they clear up some of the historical issues.
Every new endeavor in climbing has had it's controversies, while the piton versus clean climbing debate has died (free climbing only, maybe one day aid climbers will follow) the bolt on rages on. I hope to climb long enough to see this one die.
Climber since 86, when line were slighly more clearly drawn between sport and trad. Thank to all those of you who help me see the light. I no longer just trad climb, but rock climb
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rmiller
Jan 29, 2004, 12:02 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: So Curt, How has this "new ethic" damaged climbing? I am still confused on that point. Ronnie I'm not sure I can be any more clear than I was in my post above, without getting back into personal opinion and starting up the flame fest that got the other thread locked. However, you will notice that I did say this above - In reply to: So, to the hard-line traditionalists this is cheating.... How would any person, in any sport (baseball, golf, football, whatever) not see cheating as something that damaged their sport? Curt
But it is not cheating. It is just a different style of ascent that some don't partake and some do.
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ambler
Jan 29, 2004, 12:08 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: Signed: Yvon Chouinard Tom Frost Inventors of the rurp and the modern chromolly knife blade, arguably the most destructive tools in climbing. Ever seen the 1st pitch of Serenity Crack? Sport climbers didn't do that.
In between the hammers of the 60s and the Friends of the 80s or the bolts of the 90s, there was a window when people were establishing long free routes ground-up, without hammers, bolts, sticky shoes or cams. The adventure level was pretty high, as ordinary climbers adopted ethics of the ethical elite.
As for Serenity Crack, it wasn't Yvon & Tom who did that either -- it was "the masses," large numbers of climbers on a popular, safe easy route -- 5.7 A2 and recommended, in Roper's red guide. A "sport climb," in some sense, of its time.
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bobd1953
Jan 29, 2004, 1:12 AM
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In reply to: and have proven to be a ground for testing of limits in traditional ways--Matt Samet in the Flatirons
He was not testing the limits of Traditional Climbing. He started from the top and worked his way down placing gear and top-roping the route many times before leading it.
It's funny, I has been climbing for 30-plus years and still enjoy all aspects of it. Just today I bolted and climbed a new face route (11d) in the South Platte and then when and led a beautiful finger crack on trad-gear. Both climbs were wonderful and very satisfing to do. I really feel sorry for the climbers who only pursue one aspect of the sport.
Hey Alan W. if you are out there. Glad to hear you doing well and sorry about the "wanker" remark. Bob D.
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